MeTV's SuperSci-Fi Saturday Night

TREK_GOD_1 · Sep 24, 2017

Legacy / cultural impact and other details about The Incredible Hulk--

Although the generally serious Nicholas Hammond Amazing Spider-Man made its debut two months before TIH's pilot, TIH is routinely considered the first adult superhero TV production.
As of April 11, 2017, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. surpassed The Incredible Hulk's record of most episodes of a Marvel live action TV series with episode 83, "No Regrets".
Out of 6 live action superhero-themed series* making their debut in the 1970s (not counting TV movies or one-shot specials), The Incredible Hulk was the only one to continue into the 1980s, and generally not judged in a negative manner.
39 years after TIH's debut, WatchMojo ranked it at #7 of the Top 10 Marvel TV Shows (though I disagree with the ranking).
The series created one of the most well known lines of dialogue in TV history ("Mister McGee, don't make me angry, You wouldn't like me when I'm angry").

Kenneth Johnson on one of the 2003 Hulk writer's call about TIH reference in that film--

"I know that Gale Anne Hurd had been trying to get the movie made for about a dozen years. There had been 10 or 11 different writers on it. One of them called me after the movie opened and said, "I just want you to know that in all the screenings that I have been in, after all of the writers that have worked on this show, the only line that gets a rise out of the audience is You wouldn't like me when I'm angry", so I was flattered."

The term "Hulk/Hulking Out" becoming a popular descriptive term for everything from a moment of rage to bodybuilding...

Jill Sherman-Donner (TIH writer/producer) on "Hulk/Hulking Out"--

"I do remember that Nick Corea was in line at a restaurant, and the reservations were backed up, and we had just started, and someone was in the line saying, "If they don't call my name soo, I'm gonna Hulk Out." And he said, "We're gonna be a hit!" It had become part of the lexicon at that time."

Not to mention how ingrained the series is in other productions like few other superhero productions--

Ferrigno in full Hulk make-up from a 1982 episode of ABC's The Fall Guy--

"My Student" --a 2001 episode of Scrubs--

AGF Mutual Funds commercial-

Once Ferrigno became an occasional guest star on The King of Queens starting in 2000, it was not uncommon for the Doug Heffernan character (Kevin James) to make the "Hulk pose" as a running gag, or use the "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry" line.

Family Guy's parody of TIH's opening credits--

Family Guy's TIH/"Lonely Man" parody from the end credits of season two's "Wasted Talent"--

Perhaps the biggest impact are TIH nods or direct references to 21st century adaptations of the Hulk. As noted earlier, in Ang Lee's Hulk (Universal, 2003) @ 1:04--

Then there's the MCU's The Incredible Hulk (Universal / Marvel Studios, 2008), with a title sequence borrowing heavily from TIH's opening credits (image courtesy of Art of the Title)--

So, in a period where comic adaptations have the choice, budget and ability to take influence from anywhere, and establish an exclusive artistic voice, the Kenneth Johnson Hulk still has a notable presence / influence. Aside from Superman: the Movie (Warner Brothers, 1978) & Batman (Warner Brothers, 1989), few superhero adaptations have enjoyed so many direct nods or tributes decades after its debut, and its highly unlikely that current superhero TV series will cast so long (and loved) a shadow .

Touching on the "adult" note at the top of this post, historians and fans accurately cite The Incredible Hulk as the first production (along with Superman: the Movie) to make audiences take superheroes seriously and treat the filmed version of the genre with a measure of respect. TIH was not going to be a show tossing around "THWACK!" and "ZAMM!" (Batman), have the hero smile at the end of the episode (Wonder Woman) or wink to the audience (George Reeves). It was serious business, which had appeal far beyond the comic book fan.

Considering the state of many of today's TV superhero series, I doubt most (with the exception of Daredevil & Jessica Jones) possess the creative lighting in a bottle, the spirit or heart that will draw viewers in decade after decade to come.

*6 series: TIH, Wonder Woman, Shazam!, The Secrets of Isis, The Amazing Spider-Man and Electra Woman and Dyna Girl.

The Old Mixer · Sep 24, 2017

The big-budget Hulk films also made a point of giving Ferrigno cameos and having him do the Hulk's voice (the latter continuing into the Avengers films). Also, there were many more nods to the TV series in the 2008 film, including a humorous variation on the famous opening credits catchphrase and the use of the Lonely Man theme.

Nerys Myk · Sep 24, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
A few highlights in the world of music for those months:

"1999," Prince

(Oct. 30; #44 US; #1 Dance; #4 R&B; #25 UK; recharted in 1983, reaching #12 US; #212 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

"Sexual Healing," Marvin Gaye

(Oct. 30; #3 US; #34 AC; #12 Dance; #1 R&B; #4 UK; #231 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

"Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?," Culture Club

(Dec. 4; #2 US; #8 AC; #34 Dance; #39 R&B; #21 Rock; #1 UK)

"Hungry Like the Wolf," Duran Duran

(Dec. 25; #3 US; #36 Dance; #1 Rock; #5 UK)

"Billie Jean," Michael Jackson

(Jan. 22, 1983; #1 US the weeks of Mar. 5 through Apr. 16; #9 AC; #1 R&B; #1 UK; #58 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

Five out of Five on the Myky likes them scale.

The Old Mixer · Sep 24, 2017

I'm not expecting so impressive a score from RJD...never mind TREK_GOD.

RJDiogenes · Sep 25, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
More specifically, they were punk.

Indeed. Punk was not something I liked, and still don't to a large degree.

Tax credit REVOKED!

Another piece of the RJDiogenes Family Musical History falls into place....

Someday it will all make sense. No, probably not.

"The Girl Is Mine," Michael Jackson & Paul McCartney

Not a big fan of Michael Jackson or 80s Paul McCartney.

"1999," Prince

Not a big fan of Prince (and the implication that the 21st century started in the year 2000 doesn't help).

"Sexual Healing," Marvin Gaye

Such a great title. Such a bland song.

"Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?," Culture Club

Oh, my goodness. The 80s really happened, didn't they?

"Hungry Like the Wolf," Duran Duran

Mediocre song. One of the all-time great videos.

"Billie Jean," Michael Jackson

Not a big fan of Michael Jackson.

And that seems like a solid place to stop and leave the rest of the decade to memory and/or the imagination.

Too bad, because things will get better for the next several years.

The Old Mixer said:
I'm not expecting so impressive a score from RJD...never mind TREK_GOD.

No, this was definitely the bad side of the 80s. :rommie:

Nerys Myk · Sep 25, 2017

RJDiogenes said:
No, this was definitely the bad side of the 80s.

The Old Mixer · Sep 26, 2017

RJDiogenes said:
Not a big fan of Michael Jackson or 80s Paul McCartney.

Not a big fan of Prince (and the implication that the 21st century started in the year 2000 doesn't help).

Such a great title. Such a bland song.

Mediocre song. One of the all-time great videos.

Not a big fan of Michael Jackson.

Wow, an even worse score than I expected. I thought you'd surprise me by liking at least one of this bunch.

Oh, my goodness. The 80s really happened, didn't they?

Too bad, because things will get better for the next several years.

Now that has me curious.

For me, '80s music becomes of less interest the further the decade goes on. There are things that I like throughout the decade, but I get a lot more selective in the second half, ignoring large swaths of what was out there in my playlists. I'd say that 1983 is actually a sort of "sweet spot" year musically...generally pretty solid, and it feels like the decade has found its own musical identity.

RJDiogenes · Sep 26, 2017

Nerys Myk said:

Sorry, Mal. :rommie:

The Old Mixer said:
Wow, an even worse score than I expected. I thought you'd surprise me by liking at least one of this bunch.

Any one in particular? I do have "Hungry Like The Wolf" in my MP3 folder (I think).

For me, '80s music becomes of less interest the further the decade goes on. There are things that I like throughout the decade, but I get a lot more selective in the second half, ignoring large swaths of what was out there in my playlists. I'd say that 1983 is actually a sort of "sweet spot" year musically...generally pretty solid, and it feels like the decade has found its own musical identity.

I'd have to check dates at this point, because it was so long ago, but for me the reinvigoration of music that started around 80-81 lasted until mid decade and then trailed off. By the 90s, things were mostly pretty dire again.

The Old Mixer · Sep 26, 2017

RJDiogenes said:
Any one in particular?

No, that's why it would have been a surprise.

TREK_GOD_1 · Sep 27, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
That much was never in doubt, but they downplayed his strength so much, having him toss bad guys around harmlessly and whatnot, that it's noteworthy when he does something really impressive.

That was the magic of the show--no overkill. Sometimes, it is wise to hold back on the bigger feats of strength, instead of hitting audiences over the head with it, and risk the effect becoming boring.

All of that paints a pretty sad picture, if it was true that the show was still doing well in the ratings. The producers wanted to keep it going and had interesting story ideas, but some studio exec came along and axed it.

From the quotes from all involved, it appears the series was doing so well that the cancellation notice caught all by surprise. Additionally, Kenneth Johnson had not run out of ideas by that point--certainly enough for a full 5th season. But the common story of TV executives is their shortsighted or dismissive attitude toward fantasy series, so no matter how successful TIH was, it was doomed thanks to one, clueless exec.

And now, the moment that you've all been waiting nineteen months for...

Series-End Tallies!

People Who Find Out David's the Hulk and Live to Not Tell About It

Julie Griffith and Michael ("Death in the Family")
Thomas Logan ("Rainbow's End")
Mark Hollinger ("A Child in Need")
Li Sung ("Another Path"; died in second appearance)
Michael Roark ("The Disciple")
Dr. Gabrielle White(cloud) ("Kindred Spirits")
Joleen Collins ("Brain Child")
D. W. and Helen Banner ("Homecoming")
Annie Caplan/Cassidy ("The Psychic")
Lucy Cash ("A Rock and a Hard Place")
Katie Maxwell ("Prometheus")
Elizabeth Collins ("The First")
Emerson Fletcher ("Interview with the Hulk")

No additions here since last time.

Considering how much David travelled between 1977-82, the list of 15 people is pretty small. That's a good thing.

And the album's first single release was:

"The Girl Is Mine," Michael Jackson & Paul McCartney
(Nov. 6; #2 US; #1 AC; #1 R&B; #8 UK)

The song is....on that rocket. What a sap-fest that was.

"1999," Prince

Never a fan.

"Sexual Healing," Marvin Gaye

Nothing like a person waaaaayyyy past his physical prime singing about his suggested sexual prowess. A low point for the man who once wrote and/or performed some of the great songs/albums of the late 20th century.

"Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?," Culture Club
(Dec. 4; #2 US; #8 AC; #34 Dance; #39 R&B; #21 Rock; #1 UK)

Oh, for.....change of plan. The original rocket was the size of 2001's Discovery. I now see the ship needs to be the size of a Star Destroyer. Load 'em up!!

"Hungry Like the Wolf," Duran Duran
(Dec. 25; #3 US; #36 Dance; #1 Rock; #5 UK)

Eh. Duran Duran had more "teen magazine hype" associated with the act than they were worth. Very forgettable songs.

"Billie Jean," Michael Jackson

Best song from Thriller--by far, and the last great song of his career.

And that seems like a solid place to stop and leave the rest of the decade to memory and/or the imagination.

Good idea, and thanks for the song tie-ins throughout The Incredible Hulk's network run.

The Old Mixer · Sep 27, 2017

So, reversal of expectations...the final set gets a higher score from Trek_God than RJD!

TREK_GOD_1 said:
Good idea, and thanks for the song tie-ins throughout The Incredible Hulk's network run.

My pleasure. I just wish I'd done it from the get-go instead of picking up partway into '79.

RJDiogenes · Sep 28, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
So, reversal of expectations...the final set gets a higher score from Trek_God than RJD!

Barely.

My pleasure. I just wish I'd done it from the get-go instead of picking up partway into '79.

Let's see, it started in 1977, so that first season would have gotten some good ratings from me.

Christopher · Sep 30, 2017

Well, it's been a week, so I guess I'll post my reviews of the Incredible Hulk revival movies now. I don't see much point in posting them a week at a time, though, so here comes a single long post covering all three:

The Incredible Hulk Returns: I still have mixed feelings about this one. I never liked the idea of adding a supernatural character like Thor to the fairly grounded universe of the Bixby Hulk, where the most fanciful things we ever got were psychic precognition and vague Chinese mysticism. And even with former TIH writer-producer Nicholas Corea returning as writer and director, the movie takes a less dramatic, more action-oriented tone than the series -- and certainly more violent and gunplay-driven, thanks to laxer network standards on censorship. The lack of Joe Harnell’s music is a major loss; Lance Rubin just isn’t a comparable talent, and the ‘80s synth arrangement doesn’t help. And a Hulk-out without the Startling Metamorphosis Chorus just isn’t the same.

Still, a lot about this movie works surprisingly well. Its version of Thor is pretty revisionist (though not quite as much so as its version of Banner), with Thor as some undead warrior king and his hammer being fairly small and easy for anyone to lift, but it’s effective. Eric Allan Kramer is quite good as Thor, and having him be a separate entity summoned by Blake, instead of someone Blake turns into, is a good idea, since it lets them play off each other in a mismatched-buddies sort of way. Their developing relationship is the most enjoyable part of the story, and would presumably have been the anchor of the spinoff series this was a backdoor pilot for. It’s certainly more effective than David’s unconvincing romance with Maggie, the woman he's settled down with at the start of the film; Lee Purcell is no Mariette Hartley.

It’s nice to see McGee again, but given that this would be his only appearance in the revival movies, it’s a shame it’s so routine, about the same as his role in a typical episode. And it’s kind of sad, actually, because it sounds like he quit the Register and doesn’t seem to have been doing so well career-wise. (The name National Register is never even mentioned, even though the editor he talks to on the phone is called Mark, like Walter Brooke’s recurring character -- yet it’s clearly not Brooke’s voice.) I wish he’d gotten more of a payoff in the end, and it’s a shame the subsequent movies dropped him.

The timing is also odd. This came out 11 years after the pilot, but Blake says he last saw Banner 10 years ago at a lecture. And McGee says he chased the Hulk for nearly 4 years, while it’s been only 2 years since the Hulk last appeared. So is the movie supposed to be set several years earlier than it really is?

It’s also surprising how much more pumped up Ferrigno is here compared to the series -- and he was huge enough in the series. I wonder, did he overcompensate to balance out the effect of his age, or was it just due to changing style in bodybuilder physique, the growing insistence on even more ridiculously overdeveloped muscles?

The movie’s ending is oddly upbeat, to the point of being incongruous -- it’s set up to suggest that, for once, David can just stay where he is and have a contented life with the woman he loves, yet without explanation he just leaves at the end.

Which makes it jarring to go from there to the start of The Trial of the Incredible Hulk, which seems to disregard the previous movie and portray a closed-off, embittered David who’s lost all hope. Although it’s similar to its predecessor in being a broader, more action-driven story. But I actually like this movie best of the three. It’s more a Daredevil pilot than a Hulk movie, with David not even Hulking out in the climax, but it’s a pretty good Daredevil pilot for its time. Rex Smith is a bit broad as Matt Murdock, but still engaging, and John Rhys-Davies makes a superb Wilson Fisk, despite the odd way the character is written with his obsession for video and his mirrored sunglasses. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that it otherwise invents new characters and backstory around Daredevil rather than using familiar characters like Foggy, Karen, and Ben Urich -- but given that, I am a bit surprised that it does include the minor character of Turk Barrett (although he’s white in this version). I would’ve been interested to see the series this was a test run for, although it wouldn’t have compared to the current Daredevil.

I also feel that Daredevil is a better fit for the mostly-naturalistic Bixby-Hulk universe than Thor, since he got his powers from radiation the same as David, and they’re quite subtle powers compared to the Hulk’s. And it’s nice to see Matt and David bonding as radiation bros. There are a couple of continuity errors, though. David has no fingerprints on file, unlike in “A Rock and a Hard Place,” and he says he’s never considered how a blind person would live, even though he was briefly blind himself in “Blind Rage.” Also, why in the world would David think that it was safe for him to be in general population in prison? Even without murder attempts, that’s hardly a stress-free environment.

I wasn’t planning to watch the final movie, The Death of the Incredible Hulk. It was hard to find, and I remember it being overly dark and depressing, with David even more hopeless and lost, without friends or family despite all the friends he made and the actual family he had over the course of the series. It’s the one installment of the series that I’ve never chosen to rewatch. But I eventually decided to track it down for completeness’s sake -- it can’t be as bad as episodes like “Babalao” and “Deathmask” and “East Winds” – and I found a copy through interlibrary loan.

It's actually not as bad as I remembered, for the most part. It’s just weird – like the previous movies, it seems to ignore past continuity of both the series and the recent films and tell its own standalone story. David has infiltrated a genetics lab by playing a mentally disabled janitor, and he secretly helps geneticist Dr. Pratt (Philip Sterling) with research that could heal David and many others, until he’s discovered and works with Pratt and his wife Amy (Barbara Tarbuck) on a cure, growing close to them in a montage. Meanwhile, spy and master of disguise Jasmin (Elizabeth Gracen, mistakenly credited to Tarbuck on the DVD blurb) tries to steal Pratt’s research for her nebulous terrorist organization, but ends up discarded by them and saved by David, who falls in love with her.

There’s actually some very good material here between David and Pratt, some excellent acting moments from Bixby, and Pratt gets a good rant off at a government backer about how the perfect soldier is one who's gone fishing because he’s out of work. Gracen is quite beautiful as Jasmin, and reasonably effective in the role, though she’s too young for Bixby and their relationship develops rather fast. The problem is mainly how detached it all is from anything prior. How are these newcomers David’s only family, the ones on hand for his final moments? Granted, the series handled his relationships the same way, but it’s hard to find these strangers’ relationships to David as poignant as we’re asked to accept they are. I can’t help wondering what happened to his father and sister – or, heck, to Daredevil, whom he befriended 9 months earlier.

What really dooms the movie is that climactic death scene. It’s terrible. Jasmin ends up getting chased by a taxiing plane for no good reason. David runs after her, and his final Hulk-out is the most slapdash one in a movie where they’ve all been half-hearted. The Hulk ends up on the plane when it takes off, and his final act taints his morality in the way David spent a dozen years fearing, as the Hulk causes the villain to shoot into the fuel tank and kill herself and her pilot. The Hulk’s final fall is laugh-out-loud awful, with poor Lou having to lie on his back and flail his limbs in slow motion while a cheesily elegiac pop song plays. And then he changes back, David says “I’m free,” he dies, the end. It’s a terrible way to end it all. David, the Hulk, and the series deserved better.

The Old Mixer · Sep 30, 2017

WORLD ONCE AGAIN WITH A HULK--IT'S A CHEESY HULK, BUT HEY, IT'S A HULK!

Christopher said:
The Incredible Hulk Returns

Originally aired May 22, 1988

I still have mixed feelings about this one.

As did I, as I recall. Cheesy as hell, but still kind of fun as its own thing.

I never liked the idea of adding a supernatural character like Thor to the fairly grounded universe of the Bixby Hulk, where the most fanciful things we ever got were psychic precognition and vague Chinese mysticism.

Whereas I always felt that Banner could have been sharing his world with the other Marvel live action TV heroes of the era of the original show, just as characters with vastly different backgrounds and written/drawn in different styles coexist in shared comic book universes. So throwing Thor in wasn't a deal-breaker for me.

And a Hulk-out without the Startling Metamorphosis Chorus just isn’t the same.

Ah yes, I vaguely recall that they ditched that. Definitely not the same.

Eric Allan Kramer is quite good as Thor, and having him be a separate entity summoned by Blake, instead of someone Blake turns into, is a good idea, since it lets them play off each other in a mismatched-buddies sort of way. Their developing relationship is the most enjoyable part of the story, and would presumably have been the anchor of the spinoff series this was a backdoor pilot for.

Yes, I also remember this being the most enjoyable part.

It’s nice to see McGee again, but given that this would be his only appearance in the revival movies, it’s a shame it’s so routine, about the same as his role in a typical episode. And it’s kind of sad, actually, because it sounds like he quit the Register and doesn’t seem to have been doing so well career-wise. (The name National Register is never even mentioned, even though the editor he talks to on the phone is called Mark, like Walter Brooke’s recurring character -- yet it’s clearly not Brooke’s voice.) I wish he’d gotten more of a payoff in the end, and it’s a shame the subsequent movies dropped him.

So underwhelming, so much wasted opportunity....

The timing is also odd. This came out 11 years after the pilot, but Blake says he last saw Banner 10 years ago at a lecture. And McGee says he chased the Hulk for nearly 4 years, while it’s been only 2 years since the Hulk last appeared. So is the movie supposed to be set several years earlier than it really is?

I always wondered if they were suggesting that it had only been two years since the series. Whatever the case, I was always intrigued by the idea that he'd managed to avoid Hulking Out for two years.

_______

MUSICAL INTERLUDE THE FIRST

"Fast Car," Tracy Chapman
(Charted June 4, 1988; #6 US; #7 AC; #19 Rock; #5 UK; #165 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

"Sweet Child o' Mine," Guns N' Roses
(Charted June 25, 1988; #1 US the weeks of Sept. 10 and 17, 1988; #7 Rock; #24 UK; #196 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

"Like a Prayer," Madonna
(Charted March 18, 1989; #1 US the weeks of Apr. 22 through May 6, 1989; #3 AC; #1 Dance; #20 R&B; #1 UK; #300 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

_______

The Trial of the Incredible Hulk

Originally aired May 7, 1989

which seems to disregard the previous movie and portray a closed-off, embittered David who’s lost all hope.

I recall finding that a bit jarring at the time. One could imagine that after two years of leading a relatively stable, happy existence, he was embittered to find himself back in his Fugitive Premise. Also, if for the sake of argument Returns did take place only two years after the series, then more time could have passed between Returns and Trial.

with David not even Hulking out in the climax

I don't recall noticing that upon first viewing, but was positively shocked when I revisited it years later.

but it’s a pretty good Daredevil pilot for its time.

Agreed.

I also feel that Daredevil is a better fit for the mostly-naturalistic Bixby-Hulk universe than Thor, since he got his powers from radiation the same as David, and they’re quite subtle powers compared to the Hulk’s.

No argument there.

There are a couple of continuity errors, though. David has no fingerprints on file, unlike in “A Rock and a Hard Place,” and he says he’s never considered how a blind person would live, even though he was briefly blind himself in “Blind Rage.”

Ooooh, BUSTED!

_______

MUSICAL INTERLUDE THE SECOND

"Love Shack," The B-52's
(Charted Sept. 2, 1989; #3 US; #7 Dance; #1 Alt; #2 UK; #243 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

"Free Fallin'," Tom Petty
(Charted Nov. 4, 1989; #7 US; #17 AC; #1 Rock; #64 UK; #177 on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time)

_______

The Death of the Incredible Hulk

Originally aired February 18, 1990

David has infiltrated a genetics lab by playing a mentally disabled janitor

I found that premise intriguing, and I remember on original viewing wondering if maybe David's condition had somehow affected his mind since we'd last seen him. I also liked when he revealed who he really was to whatshisname...

Dr. Pratt

Yeah, him.

The problem is mainly how detached it all is from anything prior. How are these newcomers David’s only family, the ones on hand for his final moments? Granted, the series handled his relationships the same way, but it’s hard to find these strangers’ relationships to David as poignant as we’re asked to accept they are. I can’t help wondering what happened to his father and sister – or, heck, to Daredevil, whom he befriended 9 months earlier.

I'd say that's pretty much the whole problem with this being the final installment in a nutshell...but that doesn't even touch upon the huge lost potential of McGee being involved...!

What really dooms the movie is that climactic death scene. It’s terrible. Jasmin ends up getting chased by a taxiing plane for no good reason. David runs after her, and his final Hulk-out is the most slapdash one in a movie where they’ve all been half-hearted. The Hulk ends up on the plane when it takes off, and his final act taints his morality in the way David spent a dozen years fearing, as the Hulk causes the villain to shoot into the fuel tank and kill herself and her pilot. The Hulk’s final fall is laugh-out-loud awful, with poor Lou having to lie on his back and flail his limbs in slow motion while a cheesily elegiac pop song plays. And then he changes back, David says “I’m free,” he dies, the end. It’s a terrible way to end it all. David, the Hulk, and the series deserved better.

Yep...that's how I remember it being. :thumbdown:

Christopher · Sep 30, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
Whereas I always felt that Banner could have been sharing his world with the other Marvel live action TV heroes of the era of the original show, just as characters with vastly different backgrounds and written/drawn in different styles coexist in shared comic book universes. So throwing Thor in wasn't a deal-breaker for me.

Yeah, but TIH was a thing apart from other comic-book shows, taking a much more serious and grounded tone. Things like the bionic shows and Wonder Woman inevitably brought in aliens and androids and magic spells and the like, and Spider-Man in its short run had a telekinetic villain and a clone episode, but TIH mostly stuck to its commitment to being a more naturalistic show where gamma mutation was virtually the only paranormal element -- aside from psychic phenomena, which were actually taken somewhat seriously as a possibility at the time, and that weird episode where the genius teenage girl had randomly invented a sapient AI.

So, yeah, in another reality, a Hulk show could have been more comics-like and brought in more fanciful elements, but the fact is, it didn't do that. So for the very first revival movie to do something so massively different in approach just made it feel less than authentic.

Heck, even the Arrowverse worked its way up from "grounded naturalism" to "magic is real" gradually, easing us into increasingly more way-out concepts, from strength-enhancing serum to dark matter-empowered metahumans to time travel and parallel Earths, and so on. And it started doing so as early as its second season. TIH maintained a mostly consistent set of ground rules for five seasons, and then TIHR went right to the opposite extreme. It was entertaining in its way, but it just didn't feel like it fit into the same universe as the show. Certainly not as well as Daredevil fits in. Heck, I could have accepted a Spider-Man crossover too, since that's yet another radiation-altered hero with superstrength, and its "psychic vision" interpretation of the spider-sense was consistent with TIH's psychic/precognitive episodes. I think we've talked about this before, that there are some Marvel characters that would've fit better into the show's world than others (e.g. maybe Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, or the like).

I always wondered if they were suggesting that it had only bee two years since the series. Whatever the case, I was always intrigued by the idea that he'd managed to avoid Hulking Out for two years.

Didn't the 2008 movie open with a similar premise, that Bruce had been using meditation and heart rate monitoring to control his affliction for a couple of years?

I recall finding that a bit jarring at the time. One could imagine that after two years of leading a relatively stable, happy existence, he was embittered to find himself back in his Fugitive Premise. Also, if for the sake of argument Returns did take place only two years after the series, then more time could have passed between Returns and Trial.

I dunno. I'm just not sure any two of these movies really fit together in a single continuity with each other or with the series. If I could pick just one to be in the series continuity, I'd pick Trial, but as I mentioned, it conflicts with a couple of episodes.

I found that premise intriguing, and I remember on original viewing wondering if maybe David's condition had somehow affected his mind since we'd last seen him.

I'm not sure, but I might have thought the same thing at first. That's probably what they wanted us to think -- that after all these years of temporarily losing his intellect during the metamorphoses, he'd reached the point where it never came all the way back.

I'd say that's pretty much the whole problem with this being the final installment in a nutshell...but that doesn't even touch upon the huge lost potential of McGee being involved...!

I've probably said this before too, but I always wanted to see a series finale where McGee discovered Banner's secret and chose to sacrifice his shot at the Pulitzer in order to help David cure himself. Much like the Fugitive finale where Gerard and Kimble finally ended up working together.

RJDiogenes · Sep 30, 2017

The Old Mixer said:
"Fast Car," Tracy Chapman

Ah, beautiful. One of the rare gems of the late 80s.

"Sweet Child o' Mine," Guns N' Roses

But I can't stand Guns N' Roses.

"Like a Prayer," Madonna

And I can't stand Madonna.

"Love Shack," The B-52's

But I like the B-52's and I love this song. It seems like it should have come out earlier, somehow, but that's the weird effect of memory on time.

"Free Fallin'," Tom Petty

Latter-day Tom Petty is a very different animal from in-his-prime Tom Petty, but he did manage a couple of nice songs, and this was one of them.

Shaka Zulu · Dec 17, 2017

TREK_GOD_1 said:
They overflowed with gross stereotypes that did not advance black characterization forward. Producers such as Norman Lear thought he was some "king of relevant TV," but he--and the writers/producers of other series--added stereotyped characters that were--in some cases--as bad as the kind of crap seen in the Amos 'n' Andy (the TV version), or the human joke characters in Golden Age Hollywood short subjects (e.g. Dudley Dickerson's work) that only existed to scream, bug their eyes and issue an encyclopedia's worth of offensive behavior and/or catchphrases.

Good Times' John Amos left the series (fired) in large part due to his heated criticism of the intensifying, black modern-day minstrel / assclown antics of Jimmie Walker's J.J. character. During its development, Amos was led to believe (by Lear) the series would take a more serious look at a struggling black family, but as the J.J. antics proved popular (so much can be said about that), the PTB wanted to play both J.J.'s act and catchphrases for all it was worth. Amos' departure had nothing to do with network-fed stories of the actor wanting to move into serious roles.

Additionally, a significant motivator for Bill Cosby to create The Cosby Show (in the following decade) was to stand as a full-on fight against the kind of 70's black sitcoms that sold a generation of audiences on the idea that African Americans were sideshows--subject to racial mockery.

As noted yesterday, there was an explosion of black performers cast in TV, but drama was where the real advances were made (much like 1960s American TV), with only a couple of characters on other sitcoms not falling into that sideshow / minstrel category.

And Cosby's struggles with his learning disabled son Ennis to get him to graduate high school in the way that he expected were mirrored in that of Theo Huxtable's struggles with a learning disability and his eventual successful graduation from high school, something that Lear and Yorkin never bothered to really have happen with J.J. (who simply got the deus ex machina ending of being able to get a job at a greeting card company in the final episodes of the final season of Good Times.)

Amazingly enough, Afro-Americans now want to see more black sitcoms again, despite us being in a passel of them in the '70's and 80's: I'd rather see us in a passel of dramas and as the lead in action-adventure TV shows/movies instead, like this one:

TREK_GOD_1 · Dec 17, 2017

Shaka Zulu said:
And Cosby's struggles with his learning disabled son Ennis to get him to graduate high school in the way that he expected were mirrored in that of Theo Huxtable's struggles with a learning disability and his eventual successful graduation from high school, something that Lear and Yorkin never bothered to really have happen with J.J. (who simply got the deus ex machina ending of being able to get a job at a greeting card company in the final episodes of the final season of Good Times.)

Lear and Yorkin--the Grand Liberal Understanding Talents--were trying to save face, but it failed, since it was clear the black stereotypes were the direction they wanted the series moving toward all along. J.J. getting a job was trying to stop the bleeding from a decapitation with a napkin.

Amazingly enough, Afro-Americans now want to see more black sitcoms again, despite us being in a passel of them in the '70's and 80's: I'd rather see us in a passel of dramas and as the lead in action-adventure TV shows/movies instead, like this one:

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It remains to be seen of Black Lightning actually reflects the true identity concerns of African Americans, or will it all come from the same Hollywood playbook, where showrunners are shoving their own concerns into the mouths of African American characters, as if they're all on the same page about various political and/or social matters--a problem found in Supergirl with the marginalized James Olsen character.

Christopher · Feb 13, 2018

Hey, Mixer and others, have you seen this? Kenneth Johnson just posted a link to a list of all the reasons David Banner (and Del Frye) Hulked out in the course of The Incredible Hulk (not in chronological order):

http://kennethjohnson.us/HulkOutList.html

David Bixby · Feb 13, 2018

Christopher said:
Hey, Mixer and others, have you seen this? Kenneth Johnson just posted a link to a list of all the reasons David Banner (and Del Frye) Hulked out in the course of The Incredible Hulk (not in chronological order):
http://kennethjohnson.us/HulkOutList.html

It's not "just posted".
The list has been on Kenny's page for a good few years.

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