This seemed to be very important to star Trek and The Twilight Zone and is what I think entertained and enlightened us along with the high personal involvement. 14 year olds understood this and this is why Trek appeals to kids and the young at heart, IMO. Can anybody explain this further ?
Metaphysics, anyone ?
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It's interesting that mind/body dualism is an established fact of the Trek universe, which makes it a different one than ours.
Your comment could be read in two different ways.
One statement would be that "it's established fact in the Trek universe but it hasn't been established in our own." This statement would be, in every way, entirely true.
Another statement would be that "it's established fact in the Trek universe but it's definitely not true in our own." This statement would be entirely unsupportable, and would be more appropriately described as a statement of religious faith than as a statement of fact.
There's a large body of history, belief, and even some science, that lends credence to the idea that there is a distinction between our bodies and our identities. Every major religion holds to that, obviously, whether talking about Taoism or Hindi or Christianity or Scientology or anything else.
There's only one religion that denies it, and that's the religion known as "secular humanism," which holds the unproven positions of atheism and pure materialism as it's central tenets of faith.
The fact is, the overwhelming majority of people in the world subscribe to some form or another of this "mind/body dualism" concept. Star Trek is in no way inconsistent with that... in fact, I can't think of any examples of pure atheism/materialism which have ever appeared in any popular entertainment right now... which is not to say that is hasn't appeared in any entertainment, just in no POPULAR entertainment.
Trek, in this area at least, clearly does what successful entertainment always does... it reflects the state of mind of the people making up the audience it hopes to appeal to. Most people believe in something beyond just the body... whether they hold to a monotheistic God philosophy, or if they hold to a pantheistic perspective, or if they just believe in ghosts and bogeymen, or anything else you could imagine.
I point we agree on, see I don't exist to be your personal contraian.
Trek is full of metaphysics from Vulcan "mystics" and even Sargon attempting to become an android.
I can only explain it as the human wonder and search for something more... something beyond our temperol forms out there beyond the horizon - Even Vejur wanted "god" and to find it moved on to a new plane of life.
Sharr
Even ignoring the religion argument provided so succinctly and adequately above, there are also secular philosophical reasons for doubting the physicalist argument. We know we experience our mind, and we know that this is connected to the brain, but we can't say that the mind is the same thing as the brain - and if it is not, then there's a sliver of reason to doubt its corporeality. It's a minority secular view, but it exists.
But yes, Star Trek is a different universe, you could say, for many other reasons: Sound in space, faster-than-light travel, the 1990s being a violent and barbaric time that included a Ricardo Montalban lookalike as an Asian dictator...
Anyway, I do think a film that engaged in metaphysics would be a brilliant idea, so long as the issues are handled adequately and intelligently.
Philosophy doesn't constitute or provide evidence in favor of or against a phenomenon any more than theology does.
Folks are free to philosophize and believe as they will, but without supporting evidence such conclusions will never be persuasive to most people possessed of a little healthy, analytical skepticism.
I am reminded of the First Law of Metaphysics:
"Nothing unreal exists."
"Nothing unreal exists."
That is one of my usual quotes.
I don't know if it's mind/body dualism so much as a tension between "reality" and the "illusion".
Just to make this quick and dirty.
In Twilight Zone, most stories revolve around an unusual situation, and the viewer as well as the character can't really tell if what they see is really out there. Are gremlins really eating the plane? Or is the guy simply paranoid 'cause he's afraid to fly? Are the wax figures in the basement killing people, or is their caretaker insane? That kind of stuff.
And in many cases for Trek, what you see may not be exactly what you get. It's most obvious in the Cage story, but it's all over the place really. Is this really what it looks like, or something else?
So it's probably real/illusion more than mind/body.
Just to make this quick and dirty.
In Twilight Zone, most stories revolve around an unusual situation, and the viewer as well as the character can't really tell if what they see is really out there. Are gremlins really eating the plane? Or is the guy simply paranoid 'cause he's afraid to fly? Are the wax figures in the basement killing people, or is their caretaker insane? That kind of stuff.
And in many cases for Trek, what you see may not be exactly what you get. It's most obvious in the Cage story, but it's all over the place really. Is this really what it looks like, or something else?
So it's probably real/illusion more than mind/body.
Well, yeah, I guess. But is wasn't really HER either. If you're talking about the lady that got put together all wrong, the actual reality was that she had a leg where her arm was supposed to be. Unreality exists as a concept, but only actual reality has any truth.
Personally, I'd rather have truth than truthiness, even though truthiness can be attractive.
Personally, I'd rather have truth than truthiness, even though truthiness can be attractive.
Wait, the entire image of what you saw was an illusion. That may have been her real mind, but her real body was screwed up pretty badly. And what Pike thought he was sorta falling in love with was a beautiful lady -- which was an illusion.
And reality is truth as it actually exists. We may have trouble getting to it, but it's there. It's the stuff you can see and measure, history as it really happened, nature as it actually works.
We can create illusions easily -- one of my pet peeves is that people are starting to create their own versions of reality. Conservates and Liberals on the extreme wings form their own news organizations, and their own media, put up their own talking heads etc. lest their wittel minds get currupted with "lies". Those lies are of course facts that disagree with their own opinions. Truthiness is just that -- ignoring any fact that disagrees with what you want to see.
Sorry about the rant, but that's about how easy it is to create your own reality. I'd personally rather see Vinca as she was rather than how I'd want her to be. I'd rather see reality warts and all then be fed comfortable illusions.
And reality is truth as it actually exists. We may have trouble getting to it, but it's there. It's the stuff you can see and measure, history as it really happened, nature as it actually works.
We can create illusions easily -- one of my pet peeves is that people are starting to create their own versions of reality. Conservates and Liberals on the extreme wings form their own news organizations, and their own media, put up their own talking heads etc. lest their wittel minds get currupted with "lies". Those lies are of course facts that disagree with their own opinions. Truthiness is just that -- ignoring any fact that disagrees with what you want to see.
Sorry about the rant, but that's about how easy it is to create your own reality. I'd personally rather see Vinca as she was rather than how I'd want her to be. I'd rather see reality warts and all then be fed comfortable illusions.
only if you think its real
It's Faaake!
I think what is being discussed here, is the difference between "Logical thought/Conclusion" VS. "Emotional Desire/conclusion?"
There is if you undertsand while you are watching that it's not true. That's the difference. No one watches Trek and thinks that there are actually Klingons. We agree with the writers that for the sake of the story, we'll pretend that it's true for now.
What I was mostly talking about was people sort of cherry picking facts to support what they already believe. It's kinda weird how people can willfully do that. I don't know why someone would will themselves to believe in spite of facts. That's different than watching fiction -- it's living in fiction.
What I was mostly talking about was people sort of cherry picking facts to support what they already believe. It's kinda weird how people can willfully do that. I don't know why someone would will themselves to believe in spite of facts. That's different than watching fiction -- it's living in fiction.
