Men Are The Expendable Gender

[Hermiod]

Call if a friendly reminder after a few pages of thread, then. Just in case someone forgot.

What, so people can't read now ?

That's because you are a poor persecuted victim, right? All alone in your heroic yet ill-fated crusade against the system. Puh-leeze.

Nope. Facts please, not your useless supposition. TrekBBS' mods are quite ineffectual. Everyone knows that, that's why nobody bothers notifying them of anything.

 

[Top41]

Go back and read the last few pages of this thread properly. It wasn't until Deckerd started applying labels to everyone that it took a turn for the worse.

I think we've all been a little out of line. I mean, I called Kegg a "deluded fool". That was hardly acceptable behaviour on my part.

You also called him a Nazi. Maybe an apology is in order? We like to keep things friendly--and warning-free--in GTV&M.

Gender is a BIG topic- it's going to get heated. That's inevitable I think.

True, but let's all play nice... and stay on topic.

 

[Hermiod]

True, but let's all play nice... and stay on topic.

Bit too late for that.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

You also called him a Nazi.

NO I did not. I must protest. Where? Where the hell did I call him or anyone else a Nazi? That was his misreading of it; his entirely invalid reworking of my arguments. I did not at any time call anyone a Nazi. I made no comparison in any way. That was him.

You could make the case that I, perhaps, implicitly compared him to a holocaust denier due to his insistence that I'm "imagining" the historic maltreatment of lower-status men and boys in large numbers. But Nazi? No. Not in any reality except his mind.

I posted:

I mentioned my view of young men and adolescent boys as "my people"- a subset of humanity treated in certain ways and viewed in certain ways. Would you tell a chinese person the Japanese invasion of China never happened? Would you tell a black person racism never happened? A woman that mass rapes never happened? A Jew the holocaust never happened? That these were all "imaginary?"

From this, he pulled the Nazi idea.

HE was the first one to use the word "Nazi". Not me. He pulled out the word in response to the post I quoted above. In what way are Nazis relevant, and in what way did I compare anyone to them?

As I said, if any accusation is to be interpreted from this, surely it would be that of denial? Not perpetrator.

And my intention- one I would think obvious- was not to accuse but to point out how if it were any other group being victimized he wouldn't be so quick to deny it or accuse those who identify with that group of making a fuss over nothing.

PS: And I'm the one with the persecution complex? Typical.

 

[iguana_tonante]

That's because you are a poor persecuted victim, right? All alone in your heroic yet ill-fated crusade against the system. Puh-leeze.

Nope. Facts please, not your useless supposition. TrekBBS' mods are quite ineffectual. Everyone knows that, that's why nobody bothers notifying them of anything.

Aww.

 

[Kegg]

You also called him a Nazi.

NO I did not. I must protest. Where?

Demanding quotes are we? Let's go over this again, keeping in mind your new defence. I'll apologize for this being extremely pedantic, but I'm frankly incredulous at Nasat's responses. He almost seems to think if he just protests loud enough the holes in his reasoning will go away.

Step one:

This is partly why I advised Hermiod in a PM to drop this thread. To stop it and give it a rest. Because he has to know it is not in any way productive. All he'll get is grief and no-one wants to listen- many people do not want a discussion on these issues but instead to shut down discussion on these issues so as to maintain the ideological status quo.

You are saying here that 'many people' want to 'maintain the ideological status quo' by shutting down the argument. These 'many people' could only be posters on the forum, as they are the only people responding to Hermoid's argument at all. It's manifestly clear you're referring to them, even if they're an amorphous group and of course need not refer to me personally.

My response was:

This is bizarrely paranoid, and rather unsubstantiated by the thread where I think most concerned have been more patient with your view and Hermoid's than I would have expected. An imaginary persecution complex is never a good idea, especially when, as I've observed, many of your own criticisms on how the working classes and the underclass are exploited - socially and economically in the capitalist system, or politically in a statist system, or used as cannon fodder in wartime, etc. - are neither uncommon nor unacceptable.

So, I am saying your belief that many people on this board have an ideologically vested interest in avoiding argument is paranoid. I think this is the case because I believe there has actually been discussion on the issue and - in the case of your arguments specifically - little or no resistance. Which really doesn't sound like an ideological rejection of your argument by any means to me.

However, let us observe for the nine hundredth time what you say next:

"More patient than I would have expected". How ignorantly patronising of you. I think I tend to be a lot more patient with the usual nay-sayers and ideologically blinded denialists than I have cause to be. Ignorance is usually what it is- ignorance, and a desire to see what you want to see. It's very, very frustrating to have your entirely valid and logical- and informed- viewpoints arrogantly dismissed by those who wish to maintain the ideological status quo.

I mentioned my view of young men and adolescent boys as "my people"- a subset of humanity treated in certain ways and viewed in certain ways. Would you tell a chinese person the Japanese invasion of China never happened? Would you tell a black person racism never happened? A woman that mass rapes never happened? A Jew the holocaust never happened? That these were all "imaginary?"

So, the 'many people' who 'do not want a discussion' are persecuting you, just as surely as the Japanese, the blacks, and Jews. They must be the same people, because this is your response my accusation that you belief the board members were persecuting you was imaginary.

Now, your new comments:

From this, he pulled the Nazi idea.

HE was the first one to use the word "Nazi". Not me. He pulled out the word in response to the post I quoted above. In what way are Nazis relevant, and in what way did I compare anyone to them?

This is extremely disegenuous, if not downright dishonest. You mentioned the Jews and the holocaust. Obviously, this refers to the Nazi holocaust of the Jews, so you did bring the fabled object of Godwin into the discussion. I also referred to the massacre of Nanking, because it was a rather notorious incident in the Japanese invasion of China. And so on.

Also obviously, the interfference between the genuine nature of Nazi persecution and the genuine nature of your own has been made.

The most favourable interpretation of your position would be a degree of intellectual sleight of hand the whole time - when I called you out on your belief the board was stifling your viewpoint for ideological reasons, you decided to misconstrue that as being about the issues effecting your identified group. And here again a similar sleight of hand has been done. It's a lousy argumentative tactic.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ Two issues, Kegg.

Issue one: The perceived ideological bias I'm protesting.

Issue Two: The issue of the treatment of males that ideological bias is standing against.

Not the same issue, Kegg. Two different things. Two different things being condemned.

One: A perceived attitude on this board.

Two: A historical reality.

These are not the same thing.

Protesting about the attitude you and others are taking towards me = different from the issue of how human societies treat their sons. Obviously.

Understand? Not the same thing.

Learn to separate the two issues, Kegg.

 

[Hermiod]

^Guys.

Deranged Nasat insists that he didn't mean to call you anything. There's no point arguing the toss over this all night long.

Look, there are people who don't want this issue discussed or don't think they're worth discussing. Plenty of posters here do jump to other subjects they feel are more important. They can't accept that enough people are already discussing those things. Between us, we've jumped from the relative value of male lives over female lives in the media to everything from rape conviction statistics to Wonder Woman's lack of a sex life.

The subject of the thread is the subject of the thread, nobody's forcing anyone to get involved with the discussion.

 

[Kegg]

Deranged Nasat insists that he didn't mean to call you anything. There's no point arguing the toss over this all night long.

He is continuing to shift the goalposts, though, and I find that very questionable. Observe:

Not the same issue, Kegg. Two different things. Two different things being condemned.

Then you shouldn't treat them as the same thing. Which you did. That is a salient point of my long and boring post.

I simply have zero tolerance for BS. Not whatever concerns Hermoid or Deranged Nasat have - I like debating this sort of thing, after all, and heck that's no fun to do alone. But BS? Can't stand it.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

You are saying here that 'many people' want to 'maintain the ideological status quo' by shutting down the argument. These 'many people' could only be posters on the forum, as they are the only people responding to Hermoid's argument at all. It's manifestly clear you're referring to them, even if they're an amorphous group and of course need not refer to me personally.
.

Yes. Well done.

"More patient than I would have expected". How ignorantly patronising of you. I think I tend to be a lot more patient with the usual nay-sayers and ideologically blinded denialists than I have cause to be. Ignorance is usually what it is- ignorance, and a desire to see what you want to see. It's very, very frustrating to have your entirely valid and logical- and informed- viewpoints arrogantly dismissed by those who wish to maintain the ideological status quo.

I mentioned my view of young men and adolescent boys as "my people"- a subset of humanity treated in certain ways and viewed in certain ways. Would you tell a chinese person the Japanese invasion of China never happened? Would you tell a black person racism never happened? A woman that mass rapes never happened? A Jew the holocaust never happened? That these were all "imaginary?"

So, the 'many people' who 'do not want a discussion' are persecuting you, just as surely as the Japanese, the blacks, and Jews. They must be the same people, because this is your response my accusation that you belief the board members were persecuting you was imaginary.

No, Kegg. The people who don't want a discussion are one issue. I'm then pointing out the offense inherent in trying to dismiss my view out of hand (and so disgarding discussion), by listing examples of those you wouldn't dismiss out of hand and saying my issue is no different. I'm equating the treatment of young men and boys to the persecution of these other groups, not equating you to those persecutors. Understood? It should be obvious.

1. I say, for right or wrong, that you dismiss my position out of hand, and do not want a discussion. You insist I'm imagining the issue of men and boy's mistreatment.

2. I say, this is wrong, and I point out the error in you saying it- after all, "would you tell (insert group here) they are imagining it?" No, you wouldn't. That's the point.

You say, "You just called me a Nazi!"

No, Kegg.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

But BS? Can't stand it.

You must disgust yourself, then.

Will you please, please understand the quite obvious meaning behind my post, rather than this "OMG, you called me a Nazi!" nonsense. How you could actually misunderstand it as you have is beyond me. This is clearly a ridiculous attempt to discredit an opponent by twisting their argument into a distasteful attack on you.

 

[Kegg]

No, Kegg. The people who don't want a discussion are one issue.

1. I claim you have an imaginary persecution complex because you claim people on this board have an ideological position against your viewpoint being heard.

2. That is your response. You decide to conflate my comment about the people on the boards with the persecution of the working class males, which is analogous to the Holocaust, Japan's invasion of China, black slavery.

Exactly what part of this is escaping you? Explain.

 

[Hermiod]

I simply have zero tolerance for BS. Not whatever concerns Hermoid or Deranged Nasat have - I like debating this sort of thing, after all, and heck that's no fun to do alone. But BS? Can't stand it.

You'll find that I have no tolerance for it either - like continuing to get the name of someone you've been talking to for the past three days wrong, for instance.

You two aren't going to agree on this, so put it aside. If you enjoy debating "this sort of thing" then do so. "This sort of thing" being the actual topic of the thread.

If, on the other hand, you aren't interested in my concerns then your need to be involved with this thread would seem to be done.

And yes, Kegg, there are people on this board who are against this sort of issue being discussed. I'm frankly amazed that none of them have joined in yet. Hopefully they've just put me on ignore by now.

 

[Kegg]

You'll find that I have no tolerance for it either - like continuing to get the name of someone you've been talking to for the past three days wrong, for instance.

I'm dyslexic. Words are hard. Nonetheless, apologies.

You two aren't going to agree on this, so put it aside.

The mods might intervene to that effect, but until then, no. I can't conscience the sort of argumentative tactics Deranged Nasat is using here, and that is an important distinction to make.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm dyslexic. Words are hard.

I'll take that as an apology.

The mods might intervene to that effect, but until then, no. Intellectually speaking I can't conscience the sort of argumentative tactics Deranged Nasat is using here, and that is an important distinction to make.

So, basically, your plan is to continue to disrupt this thread until it gets locked. Thanks.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

"More patient than I would have expected". How ignorantly patronising of you. I think I tend to be a lot more patient with the usual nay-sayers and ideologically blinded denialists than I have cause to be. Ignorance is usually what it is- ignorance, and a desire to see what you want to see. It's very, very frustrating to have your entirely valid and logical- and informed- viewpoints arrogantly dismissed by those who wish to maintain the ideological status quo.

I mentioned my view of young men and adolescent boys as "my people"- a subset of humanity treated in certain ways and viewed in certain ways. Would you tell a chinese person the Japanese invasion of China never happened? Would you tell a black person racism never happened? A woman that mass rapes never happened? A Jew the holocaust never happened? That these were all "imaginary?"

So, the 'many people' who 'do not want a discussion' are persecuting you, just as surely as the Japanese, the blacks, and Jews. They must be the same people, because this is your response my accusation that you belief the board members were persecuting you was imaginary.

I'm pointing out the offense inherent in trying to dismiss my view out of hand, by listing examples of those you wouldn't dismiss out of hand and saying my issue is no different. I'm equating the treatment of young men and boys to the persecution of these other groups, not equating you to those persecutors. Understood? It should be obvious.

1. I say, for right or wrong, that you dismiss my position out of hand, and do not want a discussion. You insist I'm imagining the issue of men and boy's mistreatment.

2. I say, this is wrong, and I point out the error in you saying it- after all, "would you tell (insert group here) they are imagining it?" No, you wouldn't. That's the point.

That's all I can say. If you still insist on seeing an accusation of equating people on this board with Nazis, etc, then I can't do anything more can I?

If anything, my point depends upon you NOT being like a Nazi, doesn't it?


The only "persecution" I was concerned with- and the word is Kegg's, NOT mine - is that of the young men and boys as a group. The attitude of dismissal I'm also condemning is not me stating I'm being persecuted- persecution requires offensive measures (I don't believe I have to clarify this). I'm describing attempts to dismiss my viewpoints. That isn't persecution- again, to use Kegg's words not mine, because he decides on terms he then applies to my thinking- because that is not an offensive measure, more a defensive one on their part. And dismissal there has been- of the entire discussion; note the many comments of "oh here we go again" in response to the OP, or the "misogynist!" move.

 

[Pingfah]

Point of order, Top41 was probably talking about this:

You, you, white supremacist-slavedriver-Nazi, you!!

Which was a joke, but may have seemed serious in the middle of all the shrill hysteria.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Point of order, Top41 was probably talking about this:

You, you, white supremacist-slavedriver-Nazi, you!!

Which was a joke, but may have seemed serious in the middle of all the shrill hysteria.

A worthy point, Pingfah. If Top41 meant that, I apologise to Top41. It was, as you say, obviously a sarcastic "joke" in response to the initial accusation, but technically it is therefore true that at one point I "called him a Nazi".

 

[Hermiod]

Anyone fancy talking about the original post ? No ?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Anyone fancy talking about the original post ? No ?

Well, we were having an interesting, I would claim reasonable discussion (and I posted several times about how we'd veered off topic and should keep on track or shut this down), until I was suddenly accused of comparing everyone except you to Nazis, white supremacists, etc. I take this sort of false accusation VERY seriously. Kegg's so-called logic to justify his accusation is ridiculous- how anyone could arrive at the conclusion he did is beyond me. It is therefore obviously a tactic no different to the "misogynist!" argument- a blatant attempt to soil the character of someone he disagrees with who is getting too involved in their argument.

As I said, my whole point with the "would you tell these people the historic maltreatment of their groups was imagined"? doesn't work unless I'm viewing you all as NOT like Nazis, white supremacists, etc- because the obvious implied answer is NO YOU WOULDN'T. Read the post above again. If you doubt what I've just said, what more can I do?

But I will NOT be accused of such disgraceful things as comparing those who post on the BBS to nazis, white supremaacists, etc. Anyone who knows me on other forums here knows I go out of my way to be friendly, understanding, appreciative and apologetic if I feel I have wronged another.

If Kegg wants to use this thread to claim I'm suddenly hating all my fellows on the BBS and viewing them in the way he described, due to HIS ridiculous and evidently deliberate misreading of my posts, is it any wonder I'm angry?


The problem with a policy of modesty and friendliness elsewhere is that people will try to walk all over you. There comes a point when you have to stand up for yourself.