Men Are The Expendable Gender

[Amaris]

Well, interestingly enough, Starship Troopers, one of my favorite movies, has both men and women in the military, and men and women are killed in the most brutal of ways. One of the main characters are killed, even after she was kick ass in almost every scene she was in. I believe Verhoeven was shooting for the idea that in this society depicted, men and women were truly equal.

It may not be the best example, because my god there's a lot of blood and violence, but it does show an equality among the men and women who fight together.

 

[Thestral]

Well, interestingly enough, Starship Troopers, one of my favorite movies, has both men and women in the military, and men and women are killed in the most brutal of ways. One of the main characters are killed, even after she was kick ass in almost every scene she was in. I believe Verhoeven was shooting for the idea that in this society depicted, men and women were truly equal.

It may not be the best example, because my god there's a lot of blood and violence, but it does show an equality among the men and women who fight together.

Hmm, were there a lot of background women on the ground? Other than Dizzy, I don't remember many Mobile Infantry that were female - and the special attention given to Dizzy is mitigated by that given to Razak, as a note.

Unless you mean in space, in which case yeah it was pretty equal-opportunity, with perhaps more females (including that Captain what'shername who died). Or were there perhaps more females on the ships? It's been awhile.

But yeah, everybody in that movie was expendable, and equally so. Which I think was part of Verhoeven's point in the whole massive underminding-of-militarism, that nobody's truly expendable, right?

 

[Amaris]

Well, interestingly enough, Starship Troopers, one of my favorite movies, has both men and women in the military, and men and women are killed in the most brutal of ways. One of the main characters are killed, even after she was kick ass in almost every scene she was in. I believe Verhoeven was shooting for the idea that in this society depicted, men and women were truly equal.

It may not be the best example, because my god there's a lot of blood and violence, but it does show an equality among the men and women who fight together.

Hmm, were there a lot of background women on the ground? Other than Dizzy, I don't remember many Mobile Infantry that were female - and the special attention given to Dizzy is mitigated by that given to Razak, as a note.

Unless you mean in space, in which case yeah it was pretty equal-opportunity, with perhaps more females (including that Captain what'shername who died). Or were there perhaps more females on the ships? It's been awhile.

But yeah, everybody in that movie was expendable, and equally so. Which I think was part of Verhoeven's point in the whole massive underminding-of-militarism, that nobody's truly expendable, right?

I did see more women in the ships than on the ground, but I did see plenty on the ground. I saw plenty of women in the co-ed shower scene too.

As for Verhoeven, yeah, he was satirizing the premise of the book, in making it (heavy handed) that you're good for fodder no matter if you're a son or daughter, everyone gets thrown into the machine.

 

[Hermiod]

Oy, things are so thick in here and the misinterpretations so vast that I don't know where to begin without getting accusations of misandry. So I won't. Comic book stuff I can deal with though.

For the most part, we've kept things friendly in here. to everyone.

What? How does that make any sense, and what does it even mean, "she can't hurt anyone by raping them"?

I think, and I'm probably wrong, that Deckerd is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along. Consent for a man is automatically assumed and implied to be given - drunk or not. Consent for a woman is assumed not to be given unless explicitly stated and cannot be given while drunk or otherwise "under the influence". It's an unfair, discriminatory imbalance in the way we prosecute rape cases.

Wonder Woman (Hippolyta, not Diana) has slept with Ted Grant for sure. Kingdom Come has Wonder Woman and Supes married at the end, and her pregnant. Steve Trevor's history is such a mess, not unlike Diana's. But the post-Crisis relaunch featured him as significantly older and involved with Etta Candy; anything pre-Crisis, who knows?

The thing about Bruce is I don't know if "healthy sex life" can describe him. Considering he's married to Gotham City, anything else is a dalliance at best.

Bruce can get some any time he wants. He and Clark are never portrayed as being "above" their sexuality. They're people who like to f*** women! It seems like it'd almost be some sort of major event if Wonder Woman had sex with somebody. It's sad that for her to be taken seriously, she can't have a sex life.

Her closest Marvel equivalent, Ms. Marvel, had two guys on the go at one point and has even been on a date with Spider-Man.

 

[Thestral]

I did see more women in the ships than on the ground, but I did see plenty on the ground. I saw plenty of women in the co-ed shower scene too.

As for Verhoeven, yeah, he was satirizing the premise of the book, in making it (heavy handed) that you're good for fodder no matter if you're a son or daughter, everyone gets thrown into the machine.

Hmm, guess I need to watch again. For research purposes.

Oy, things are so thick in here and the misinterpretations so vast that I don't know where to begin without getting accusations of misandry. So I won't. Comic book stuff I can deal with though.

For the most part, we've kept things friendly in here. to everyone.

What? How does that make any sense, and what does it even mean, "she can't hurt anyone by raping them"?

I think, and I'm probably wrong, that Deckerd is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along. Consent for a man is automatically assumed and implied to be given - drunk or not. Consent for a woman is assumed not to be given unless explicitly stated and cannot be given while drunk or otherwise "under the influence". It's an unfair, discriminatory imbalance in the way we prosecute rape cases.

Well... if that's what she meant, then cool. But that was a really weird way to say it, which makes me wonder.

Wonder Woman (Hippolyta, not Diana) has slept with Ted Grant for sure. Kingdom Come has Wonder Woman and Supes married at the end, and her pregnant. Steve Trevor's history is such a mess, not unlike Diana's. But the post-Crisis relaunch featured him as significantly older and involved with Etta Candy; anything pre-Crisis, who knows?

The thing about Bruce is I don't know if "healthy sex life" can describe him. Considering he's married to Gotham City, anything else is a dalliance at best.

Bruce can get some any time he wants. He and Clark are never portrayed as being "above" their sexuality. They're people who like to f*** women! It seems like it'd almost be some sort of major event if Wonder Woman had sex with somebody. It's sad that for her to be taken seriously, she can't have a sex life.

Her closest Marvel equivalent, Ms. Marvel, had two guys on the go at one point and has even been on a date with Spider-Man.

Bruce can get some, it's true. But consider the portrayal of Bats in recent years - unless I'm mistaken, traditionally Bruce Wayne, the billionaire playboy with women on his arm, is portrayed as the irresponsible ne'er do well; the women on his arm is merely a sign of that. The "real" Bruce Wayne, Batman, is so single-mindedly focused on his mission as Gotham's protector that he doesn't have time for real, healthy relationships. It'd be a distraction from his mission. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the mythological Batman (as opposed to how the character is developed from that) is so committed to Gotham that no mere woman could ever be his primary focus the way Lois can be for Superman, and it might even be "cheating on Gotham."

Then again, we always knew Batman was slightly unhealthy.

Good point about Wonder Woman. I do think it's complicated by her traditional "romantic interest" having been so dramatically changed post-Crisis, and the stories before that coming from the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" era of comics. She's always been more Supes than Bats in her sexual morality I think, so the "playgirl" idea just isn't as feasible. Though the DCAU did put her and Bats together at least to some extent (good for both of them). Maybe Marvel as a whole is more comfortable with its headlining characters having acknowledged sex lives? She-Hulk fares much better in that regard too, as I recall there was an issue where she and (reformed) Juggernaut were in bed together. And it's kinda hard to ignore Emma Frost.

 

[Hermiod]

Good point about Wonder Woman. I do think it's complicated by her traditional "romantic interest" having been so dramatically changed post-Crisis, and the stories before that coming from the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" era of comics. She's always been more Supes than Bats in her sexual morality I think, so the "playgirl" idea just isn't as feasible. Though the DCAU did put her and Bats together at least to some extent (good for both of them). Maybe Marvel as a whole is more comfortable with its headlining characters having acknowledged sex lives? She-Hulk fares much better in that regard too, as I recall there was an issue where she and (reformed) Juggernaut were in bed together. And it's kinda hard to ignore Emma Frost.

Nobody's asking for Diana to become some sort of playgirl. I just think it's a very obvious example of Real Women Never Wear Dresses - she can't be a symbol of female power and have a love interest.

It's the same sort of fan behaviour that causes TrekBBS' favourite angry feminist blogger, allecto, to angrily criticise Firefly's Zoe for cooking for her husband. Once.

Oh, and the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing ? Retconned. Though in general, Shulkie is quite the party girl and is quite proud of the fact that she officially has the Marvel Universe's largest breasts.

 

[Deckerd]

What? How does that make any sense, and what does it even mean, "she can't hurt anyone by raping them"?

I can't help you with your comprehension. You'll just have to work at it.

 

[Hermiod]

What? How does that make any sense, and what does it even mean, "she can't hurt anyone by raping them"?

I can't help you with your comprehension. You'll just have to work at it.

Does this cover it ?

I think, and I'm probably wrong, that Deckerd is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along. Consent for a man is automatically assumed and implied to be given - drunk or not. Consent for a woman is assumed not to be given unless explicitly stated and cannot be given while drunk or otherwise "under the influence". It's an unfair, discriminatory imbalance in the way we prosecute rape cases.

 

[Deckerd]

What? How does that make any sense, and what does it even mean, "she can't hurt anyone by raping them"?

I can't help you with your comprehension. You'll just have to work at it.

Does this cover it ?

I think, and I'm probably wrong, that Deckerd is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along. Consent for a man is automatically assumed and implied to be given - drunk or not. Consent for a woman is assumed not to be given unless explicitly stated and cannot be given while drunk or otherwise "under the influence". It's an unfair, discriminatory imbalance in the way we prosecute rape cases.

No. About 99.9% of drunken shags end without rancour; sheepish, jubilant, complete blank - the whole gamut of human experience is there. It is the stuff of legend. If you think it's discriminatory think on this: only about 6% of ALL rape cases ever end in a conviction. That sounds like men have got it all sewn up to me.

 

[Pingfah]

It's the same sort of fan behaviour that causes TrekBBS' favourite angry feminist blogger, allecto, to angrily criticise Firefly's Zoe for cooking for her husband. Once.

I'm not sure who you are talking about, but please PM me a link because this blog sounds like a must-read

 

[Hermiod]

No. About 99.9% of drunken shags end without rancour; sheepish, jubilant, complete blank - the whole gamut of human experience is there. It is the stuff of legend. If you think it's discriminatory think on this: only about 6% of ALL rape cases ever end in a conviction. That sounds like men have got it all sewn up to me.

Okay, you picked that fight. The automatic assumption by those who think rape conviction statistics are too low that all women tell the truth and all men are liars and rapists.

Rape is not a special crime. You have to prove someone committed a crime - be it rape or murder or shoplifting - before you convict them.

Maybe some rapists get away with it. I wish there was a better way to tell, but for the moment, I'm going to stick with that whole silly "innocent until proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based on.

 

[Deckerd]

No. About 99.9% of drunken shags end without rancour; sheepish, jubilant, complete blank - the whole gamut of human experience is there. It is the stuff of legend. If you think it's discriminatory think on this: only about 6% of ALL rape cases ever end in a conviction. That sounds like men have got it all sewn up to me.

Okay, you picked that fight. The automatic assumption by those who think rape conviction statistics are too low that all women tell the truth and all men are liars and rapists.

Rape is not a special crime. You have to prove someone committed a crime - be it rape or murder or shoplifting - before you convict them.

Maybe some rapists get away with it. I wish there was a better way to tell, but for the moment, I'm going to stick with that whole silly "innocent until proven guilty" thing that our entire legal system is based on.

So what you're saying is a) 94% of the women who actually pluck up the courage to report a rape and then testify, are clearly making it up and b) that 6% conviction rate is grossly unfair to men? Did I get that right?

I'll tell you what IS an utter scandal: that men aren't accorded the same anonymity as women in rape cases. That's a disgrace.

 

[Hermiod]

It's the same sort of fan behaviour that causes TrekBBS' favourite angry feminist blogger, allecto, to angrily criticise Firefly's Zoe for cooking for her husband. Once.

I'm not sure who you are talking about, but please PM me a link because this blog sounds like a must-read

She appears to have deleted the original post but here is her blog. There's still quite a few articles about Joss Whedon, who apparently rapes his wife.

There was a thread about it on here that got about four zombie resurrections for some reason.

She's well known enough that when I started typing her name in to Google it suggested "allecto Firefly" very quickly.

 

[Hermiod]

So what you're saying is a) 94% of the women who actually pluck up the courage to report a rape and then testify, are clearly making it up and b) that 6% conviction rate is grossly unfair to men? Did I get that right?

Nope. What I'm saying is that the other 94% are not cases of men who got away with it as some people seem to think.

They're cases of men who didn't do it, men who were drunk or high or both and out of control of their own actions too, women who misremembered, women who outright lied, women who changed their minds afterwards and a whole bunch of other things including men who got away with it.

Doesn't change the fact that you still have to prove things.

I'll tell you what IS an utter scandal: that men aren't accorded the same anonymity as women in rape cases. That's a disgrace.

Now that we can agree on.

 

[Deckerd]

Nope. What I'm saying is that the other 94% are not cases of men who got away with it as some people seem to think.

I've never seen that anywhere. In this country if you're found not guilty then you're not guilty. Seemples.

 

[Hermiod]

Nope. What I'm saying is that the other 94% are not cases of men who got away with it as some people seem to think.

I've never seen that anywhere. In this country if you're found not guilty then you're not guilty. Seemples.

Nice of you to realise that. Now, if you could just convince everyone else complaining about rape conviction statistics of that, we might get somewhere. Oh, and the neighbours of people falsely accused of rape. Telling them might help too.

 

[Thestral]

Good point about Wonder Woman. I do think it's complicated by her traditional "romantic interest" having been so dramatically changed post-Crisis, and the stories before that coming from the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" era of comics. She's always been more Supes than Bats in her sexual morality I think, so the "playgirl" idea just isn't as feasible. Though the DCAU did put her and Bats together at least to some extent (good for both of them). Maybe Marvel as a whole is more comfortable with its headlining characters having acknowledged sex lives? She-Hulk fares much better in that regard too, as I recall there was an issue where she and (reformed) Juggernaut were in bed together. And it's kinda hard to ignore Emma Frost.

Nobody's asking for Diana to become some sort of playgirl. I just think it's a very obvious example of Real Women Never Wear Dresses - she can't be a symbol of female power and have a love interest.

It's the same sort of fan behaviour that causes TrekBBS' favourite angry feminist blogger, allecto, to angrily criticise Firefly's Zoe for cooking for her husband. Once.

Oh, and the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing ? Retconned. Though in general, Shulkie is quite the party girl and is quite proud of the fact that she officially has the Marvel Universe's largest breasts.

Oh, I wouldn't want Diana to become a playgirl either, don't get me wrong, and I agree with you here. I suppose the counterpoint would be "she doesn't need to have a love interest to wield female power"? Black Canary, Oracle, Zatanna, Liberty Belle, among others, they've got that down pat. Although keep in mind that most recently Diana's been going down the "love" route somehow... she became a Star Sapphire after all, and IIRC it's due to an "unrequited love" for Batman?

You know, I think I've read that article from that person... it was... , we'll say.

Oh, why was She-Hulk/Juggs retconned? Wasn't it just a short-lived thing and basically a "here's how awesome She-Hulk is, she beds the Juggernaut?"

I can't help you with your comprehension. You'll just have to work at it.

Does this cover it ?

I think, and I'm probably wrong, that Deckerd is saying pretty much what I've been saying all along. Consent for a man is automatically assumed and implied to be given - drunk or not. Consent for a woman is assumed not to be given unless explicitly stated and cannot be given while drunk or otherwise "under the influence". It's an unfair, discriminatory imbalance in the way we prosecute rape cases.

No. About 99.9% of drunken shags end without rancour; sheepish, jubilant, complete blank - the whole gamut of human experience is there. It is the stuff of legend. If you think it's discriminatory think on this: only about 6% of ALL rape cases ever end in a conviction. That sounds like men have got it all sewn up to me.

You said:

It means she can't hurt anyone by raping them. What is it about this that you won't accept? It means if you put a drunk man in the equation HE can be a danger to her but she can't be a danger to him. That's why there is an imbalance in the burden of consent.

It reads like you're saying "a drunk woman can never harm a man, and certainly a drunk woman cannot rape a man." Actually, read more literally "a drunk woman cannot rape anyone."

But that can't be what you really mean. Because, let's just take an impossibility of a hypothetical situation here and say that a woman built like Candace Parker for some reason got drunk and decided to rape a man built like Verne Troyer. You're going to tell me that can't happen?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I know that there are a lot women who as strong as or stronger than me. They usually underestimate their strength

 

[Hermiod]

Oh, I wouldn't want Diana to become a playgirl either, don't get me wrong, and I agree with you here. I suppose the counterpoint would be "she doesn't need to have a love interest to wield female power"? Black Canary, Oracle, Zatanna, Liberty Belle, among others, they've got that down pat. Although keep in mind that most recently Diana's been going down the "love" route somehow... she became a Star Sapphire after all, and IIRC it's due to an "unrequited love" for Batman?

What ?

I've lost track of DC since the whole infamous Amazons murdering little boys incident.

You know, I think I've read that article from that person... it was... , we'll say.

We also have such classics as Zoey shouldn't call Mal "sir" (even though he was her superior during the war and that's what she's used to calling him) and how Saffron was Mal's victim.

Oh, why was She-Hulk/Juggs retconned? Wasn't it just a short-lived thing and basically a "here's how awesome She-Hulk is, she beds the Juggernaut?"

Problem was it was in a X-Men book written by Chuck Austen where all of his decisions were looked down upon. In a bit of a comedic storyline, it turned out it was actually She-Hulk from an alternate universe that slept with him along. A number of people from this same alternate universe were said to have been impersonating their Earth-616 counterparts when they made bizarre, out of character decisions - like two of the Young Avengers' inexplicable decision to sign the Superhuman Registration Act.

I do, however, like Shulkie. She's happy with the fact that she's hot, she likes the fact that there are millions of teenage boys in the Marvel universe with posters of her on their walls. Nobody is put off by her size and strength, that just makes her even more attractive.

 

[Deckerd]

Nope. What I'm saying is that the other 94% are not cases of men who got away with it as some people seem to think.

I've never seen that anywhere. In this country if you're found not guilty then you're not guilty. Seemples.

Nice of you to realise that. Now, if you could just convince everyone else complaining about rape conviction statistics of that, we might get somewhere. Oh, and the neighbours of people falsely accused of rape. Telling them might help too.

How many people do you know in this situation? Don't you think that a 6% conviction rate is a scandal?