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Men Are The Expendable Gender

Hermiod

Admiral
Admiral
While browsing around TV Tropes today, I found this. In an effort to address those who think I derail threads with this issue, I'm starting this thread to discuss it properly.

I have generally rejected the "Women in Refridgerators" idea as it applies to comic books, but this article makes a very good point - the death of a female character, stuffed inside a refridgerator or not, is a big deal because she's a woman.

Male characters, especially background characters, have to earn the sympathy of the audience whereas female characters are granted it immediately and can only lose it. This takes quite a bit of effort since behaviours - violence, sexism and even rape - that would cause a male character to lose sympathy are typically ignored if it's a woman.

In the three major battles of the Star Wars trilogy, despite having several high ranking female officers, the bulk of the Rebel Alliance's armed forces are male. This is true of most action films with such large scale battles.

Of course, if a film is intending to be realistic understandably presents the devaluing of male lives that national service, conscription and restrictions upon female service enshrine in law (save for the Netherlands and Israel). Oh and the whole "women and children first" thing.

Ironically, the reason why we were supposed to be upset about the only Expendable Male whose death is treated with anything approaching sympathy in A New Hope was left on the cutting room floor.

Typically, the death of a female character, even a tertiary character with little purpose in the story other than to be killed, will be treated with far greater importance than a male character of similar importance. The death of a Gwen Stacy or a Sue Dibney is treated as much worse than a Jack Drake.
 
I understand your argument, especially the "women and children first" thing does sound rather outdated. In this day and age it shouldn't be relevant, but I'm unsure if it would or would not be spoken today if a ship sunk with insufficient life boats for the passengers.

But from another point of view, I can understand the utilitarian use of it. That if on average, men are stronger built, then they are on average more resilient. Also, lifeboats can only float a fixed weight, and given that women and children on average weigh less than men, you could probably save 10-20% more lives by giving priority to women and children.

From a purely utilitarian perspective, it does make sense. That if the goal is saving the maximum number of lives on a sinking ship, and there isn't time to assess every individual, then it may be the best strategy.

I don't personally like utilitarian solutions though; I don't like the idea of reducing humanity to numbers. :)
 
I was always led to beleive that men were less valuable and important than women. I also got the impression that women usually just have to tolerate men (just barely at that)
 
I understand your argument, especially the "women and children first" thing does sound rather outdated. In this day and age it shouldn't be relevant, but I'm unsure if it would or would not be spoken today if a ship sunk with insufficient life boats for the passengers.

But from another point of view, I can understand the utilitarian use of it. That if on average, men are stronger built, then they are on average more resilient. Also, lifeboats can only float a fixed weight, and given that women and children on average weigh less than men, you could probably save 10-20% more lives by giving priority to women and children.

From a purely utilitarian perspective, it does make sense. That if the goal is saving the maximum number of lives on a sinking ship, and there isn't time to assess every individual, then it may be the best strategy.

I don't personally like utilitarian solutions though; I don't like the idea of reducing humanity to numbers. :)

Well, at the risk of sounding like Gregory House, if we are going to reduce it to numbers and facts, then why not just let whoever gets to the boats first survive ? The fittest people will have the best chance of surviving the cold. Or, let the richest people survive ?

Bringing this back to the original point, though, earlier on in the movie we get the line "a woman's choices are never easy", as the article points out. I looked up the actual numbers - 74% of the women aboard Titanic survived, 52% of the children and 20% of the men. Doesn't sound to me like it was women making the hard choice.

Nine times out of ten, when there's some sort of grand sacrifice to be made, it'll be a male character. "I'll stay here and disarm the bomb, you get everyone else out of here!"

I was always led to beleive that men were less valuable and important than women. I also got the impression that women usually just have to tolerate men (just barely at that)

On the, admittedly flawed assumption that you're not just winding me up, who taught you that ?
 
I get it rom real life. more often than not, i feel that women aren't really sincere around men, that even when they praise them or whatever, they are in fact, actually patronizing them. I get this subtle message that women are simply tolerating men, putting up wtih them because they have to
 
I get it rom real life. more often than not, i feel that women aren't really sincere around men, that even when they praise them or whatever, they are in fact, actually patronizing them. I get this subtle message that women are simply tolerating men, putting up wtih them because they have to

Well, I would not go that far, but I do feel that we, as a society, don't place equal importance on male lives as female lives.

The suicide rate is considerably higher for men, American men have to register for a potential draft even today (and are denied various educational subsidies unless they do) and if a single female serviceperson dies it's given much more coverage than the last hundred men who died before her.

I've encountered a few women who claim to "love" men, but I got the distinct impression from one of them that she loves men the way I love my dog - as pets.
 
Hmmm... I was always under the impression that "women and children first" was a matter of chivalry, that is, that men are protectors of the weak and helpless.

I also disagree that men are expendable.

I have no children, so if I was on a sinking ship, I believe I should be the one to remain on board so that a father could accompany his family in the lifeboat. They're going to need him not just during the crisis but afterward.

Don't get me wrong. It's not something I would do eagerly, but I just don't believe a child should watch a parent die so I can go home to my cat.
 
Don't get me wrong. It's not something I would do eagerly, but I just don't believe a child should watch a parent die so I can go home to my cat.

The "women and children first" thing is not really the subject of this thread. The point of mentioning it was that a fairly successful movie has a scene with a woman complaining about the choices women supposedly have to make - a complaint that is decidedly ironic given that hundreds of men voluntarily gave up their lives to save the lives of the women on the ship - it would seem that the choices men make are pretty tough too.

Male characters are very often the victims of unprovoked acts of violence that nobody seems to care about five minutes later. They can be raped
, beaten or generally just treated disproportionately but at best it's ignored, at worst it's treated as a joke. If there's a woman behind any of these, then they'll make some excuse - he had it coming, she's mentally ill, she was drunk, some evil man made her do it.

Sure, this is most likely to come from the fact that men are far, far more likely to die as a direct result of warfare, whether they are combatants or not and are more likely to be the victims of violent crime. Just art imitating life, right ?
 
I have generally rejected the "Women in Refridgerators" idea as it applies to comic books,
Wait, why?

It's entirely legitimate, I'm sure. Consider the comic book movie The Dark Knight, a veritable sausage fest of men being men doing manly things and making manly choices, with masculinity.

There is a token chick. Quite simply the only woman of note in the entire damn movie. Her sole purpose is to die, so that the men can be men and react to it. This is the thing, pretty much, and it's about as subtle as a sledgehammer. The expendable gender, indeed.

I'd say the refrigerated girlfriend is alive and well (that is, dead and dismembered) in Hollywood.

If there's a woman behind any of these, then they'll make some excuse - he had it coming,
Well, he did.
 
^More men die in The Dark Knight's opening scene than women die in the entire movie.

And it is only through The Joker's trickery that she dies at all. Batman chooses to save her over Dent despite his greater importance as Gotham's new hero. This death reinforces my point - her death is a tragedy while multiple male deaths are glossed over.

Then there's the results of Dent's coin tosses which invariably favour women, as if someone wrote it that way.
 
The only female lead in the film dies. There's exactly one of these, and she exists to die for the service of a plot point - to make a male character, Harvey, have a change of heart for the worse. She's baggage.

How more 'women, refrigerator' must one get?
 
^And when she dies it is presented as the worst thing that happens in the movie! That's my point! She wasn't expendable, the men who die left, right and centre were!

The men who die in this and a hell of a lot of fiction and in real life aren't even considered 'baggage'. More like lost luggage that was easily forgotten about.
 
I really find myself cringing at the idea of bringing up a Demi Moore movie but in GI Jane, the crucial line in the film was "they're not the problem, we are". When men can watch a woman die with equal equanimity to watching another man die, then we shall have true equality.
 
I've never seen GI Jane so I can't comment on it, but unless her reason for signing up in the first place is to show some sort of solidarity with the men who fight and die serving their countries, which I somehow doubt is the case, the whole concept is rather disrespectful towards those men.
 
Well there you go. You would be the first person to jump down my throat for making a specious comment on something I actually hadn't seen.
 
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