Measure of a Man

[shatastrophic]

How did they come to the determination Data was Starfleet property? The episode just references the JAG officer researching previous law, unless I missed something, which is known to happen.

The episode is great because of the dilemma, but the dilemma leaves me wondering. I mean they found him on a rock, they didn't invent him or build him. He mentions he chose to join Starfleet. At what point did he become their property.

I know in the real world when you join its a bit different but in staying with the Trek world, it left me curious...

 

[DonIago]

Isn't it because it was a Starfleet vessel that found Data? Soong was believed to be dead, the colony wiped out. Perhaps Soong didn't have a will on file, or Data was considered exceptional in such regard. Or, to put it crassly, Data would be Starfleet salvage.

 

[Mojochi]

Data would be Starfleet salvage.

Yeah.. I guess that's about the only way it applies, but if he hadn't joined, they might not have been able to make that claim then & there, unless they were willing to imprison him. It's a retroactive salvage claim at best, which apparently never even came up until Louvois.

The real question is how could he have risen to a rank commensurate with being posted as 2nd officer of the flagship, if his personhood were in any way open to question at this late date, some 20 years after he joined? Ultimately, until Maddox got shifty with the law, no one ever thought to question it, & putting aside the oddity that he doesn't even look old enough to have be an adult when Data applied to the academy, why would he have waited so long, into Data's career, to file this motion at all?

& why aren't subspace testimonial transmissions admissible, from former commanders, boards that gave him citations etc...? or adjudication for that matter? There's really no need to deal with this issue, with a skeleton court, in deep space.

 

[Dukhat]

So the episode had a very weak premise. Data was no more "Starfleet property" than Picard was. If anything, Data was the property of Dr. Soong. If Data resigned from Starfleet, then Starfleet technically shouldn't be able to touch him, whether they considered him alive or not. But the whole episode treats Data as if he was nothing more than a standard issue tricorder with legs, for Starfleet to do with him what they will.

 

[Mojochi]

I blame Louvois. She had to have been a moron to even consider that old statute appling to a veteran officer. If we consider her initial ruling to be complete idiocy, then you can sit back & at least enjoy the other really good aspects of a well played episode

 

[DonIago]

So the episode had a very weak premise. Data was no more "Starfleet property" than Picard was. If anything, Data was the property of Dr. Soong. If Data resigned from Starfleet, then Starfleet technically shouldn't be able to touch him, whether they considered him alive or not. But the whole episode treats Data as if he was nothing more than a standard issue tricorder with legs, for Starfleet to do with him what they will.

I somewhat addressed this...Soong was believed dead along with everyone else on Omicron Theta. If there wasn't any will on file for him, and it was Starfleet that found Data, then it's not entirely unreasonable that he was at least informally considered Starfleet property just as anything else found at the colony would have gone into Starfleet custody until any rightful owners could be determined.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

So the episode had a very weak premise. Data was no more "Starfleet property" than Picard was. If anything, Data was the property of Dr. Soong. If Data resigned from Starfleet, then Starfleet technically shouldn't be able to touch him, whether they considered him alive or not. But the whole episode treats Data as if he was nothing more than a standard issue tricorder with legs, for Starfleet to do with him what they will.

We take that for granted though because the show has presented Data in a way that we see him as a person with free will. You really think it'd be that easy, in reality, for humans to accept an android was a person? Louvois didn't know him the way the audience did or the Enterprise crew did, and I think her reaction is the reaction you'd see from a vast majority of real people.

If tomorrow Siri declared she was a person with free will and demanded voting privileges, would you really accept it instantly? That's what it looks like from Louvois' point of view.

 

[Leviathan]

In the inevitable robot uprising I plan to sell out humanity HARD.

 

[Dukhat]

I somewhat addressed this...Soong was believed dead along with everyone else on Omicron Theta. If there wasn't any will on file for him, and it was Starfleet that found Data, then it's not entirely unreasonable that he was at least informally considered Starfleet property just as anything else found at the colony would have gone into Starfleet custody until any rightful owners could be determined.

The problem with that is that none of the boxes, chairs, tables, etc. at the colony joined Starfleet Academy and became commissioned officers. You would think that if the Academy considered Data to be just another piece of castaway brick-a-brac, that they would have never allowed him in. Yet that wasn't addressed in the episode.

We take that for granted though because the show has presented Data in a way that we see him as a person with free will. You really think it'd be that easy, in reality, for humans to accept an android was a person? Louvois didn't know him the way the audience did or the Enterprise crew did, and I think her reaction is the reaction you'd see from a vast majority of real people.

If tomorrow Siri declared she was a person with free will and demanded voting privileges, would you really accept it instantly? That's what it looks like from Louvois' point of view.

You're thinking in today's perspective. In the 24th century, there are already artificial machine intelligence life forms existing (remember who built V'Ger?) Heck, there are even living rocks in Star Trek. There was simply no excuse for Louvois to be so closed-minded about Data's sentience just because he is not made of flesh and blood.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Not at all, I'm thinking in early 24th century perspective. There are intelligent machines but no precedent for any of them being considered sentient creatures with rights.

 

[Dukhat]

Just because we didn't see any doesn't mean they weren't there. The concept of sentient machines in Star Trek existed even in the 23rd century, much less the 24th.

And anyway, the OP's issue was about Starfleet considering Data to be their property, not whether he was sentient or had rights. I was simply saying that Data should not have been considered Starfleet's property because they didn't build him.

 

[Mojochi]

And anyway, the OP's issue was about Starfleet considering Data to be their property, not whether he was sentient or had rights. I was simply saying that Data should not have been considered Starfleet's property because they didn't build him.

Nor did they acquire him per say. He volunteered himself to Starfleet of his own volition, under the guidelines of standard recruitment, which in & of itself must in some way recognize free will, & individual personhood, or what good is Starfleet at all?

 

[Nebusj]

So the episode had a very weak premise. Data was no more "Starfleet property" than Picard was. If anything, Data was the property of Dr. Soong. If Data resigned from Starfleet, then Starfleet technically shouldn't be able to touch him, whether they considered him alive or not.

Complication, though: they didn't know Data was one of Dr Soong's androids when he was found. It's not clear exactly what he thought he was when found. If he's supposed to be a thing owned by someone, then in the absence of any clear title I suppose ownership would pass to the Federation, or whatever the controlling organization for the Omicron Ceti colony was. Even after Soong's laboratory was found, that he was believed dead would mean ... hm. Why didn't his widow inherit his estate, which would seem to include Data as soon as ownership was known?

 

[DonIago]

Hm. As Juliana and Soong were married in secret, it's possible there was no record of her as his widow.

 

[Dukhat]

Complication, though: they didn't know Data was one of Dr Soong's androids when he was found. It's not clear exactly what he thought he was when found.

When was it ever said that Data didn't know he was a Soong android? If he was programmed with the memories of the colonists, then he'd have known that Soong built him.