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Matt Decker...Hero or fool?

Shaw said:
Frankly, blaming Decker for his actions and the deaths of his crew is like blaming the passengers who rushed the cockpit of Flight 93 for the death of the other passengers. It was Decker's actions and refusal to give up that saved billions in the Rigel system, even at the cost of his crew, his own life and finally the Constellation herself.

Why should Decker not be expected to know that any planet he could have beamed his crew to, would be attacked by the Planet Killer anyway? As DS9Sega pointed out, the Constellation had already detected the PK at work. Planets in that system were already being destroyed.
 
Jackson_Roykirk said:I think that William Windom's performance was among the best in all of TOS, and in the top 10 of all Star Trek TV.

Don't you think I know that?!?
 
Babaganoosh said:
Why should Decker not be expected to know that any planet he could have beamed his crew to, would be attacked by the Planet Killer anyway? As DS9Sega pointed out, the Constellation had already detected the PK at work. Planets in that system were already being destroyed.

What was he to do then? At that point, the Constellation couldn't run (warp and impulse drives out). Life support systems were only operating at a minimal level, presumedly not enough to sustain 400+ crew. She was essentially dead in space. Like what happened to the Enterprise at Genesis 20 years later, beaming the crew down was the only option still open. It may have been the mother of all "hail Mary"s, but it was all that was left.

Where Decker messed up was in making an agressive approach to the PK on first encounter. Nothing was said to indicate that L-374 had any native populations to protect, so he should have stood off and ran as many sensor sweeps as he could to gather information about the PK, then beat feet back out of the distortion range and reported to Starfleet.
 
The events of Doomsday Machine are pretty well known...

I'd say the exact opposite. All we have on them is the witness statement of Matt Decker, and I don't see how we could trust him on anything he says.

The story of beaming everybody down to "safety" and staying behind stinks to high heaven. As demonstrated, Decker eventually reveals he knew the thing ate planets. Even more damningly, as he had been going through star system after star system, looking for the reason of the destruction of all planets therein, he'd have to assume from the outset that planets everywhere were unsafe.

Decker: "They called me. They begged me for help, four hundred of them. I couldn't. I couldn't..."

What couldn't he?

What wouldn't he?

I wouldn't put it past Decker to have used the crew as bait in some harebrained scheme, deeming the losses acceptable in light of the alternative - letting the thing feast on densely populated systems. His official story, the one he concoted to cover up his scheme, would be one of "sending the crew to safety", but that wouldn't hold up in court, and he'd come to realize it eventually.

I don't really believe that the DDM disabled the transporters at a crucial moment. More likely is that Decker refused a beam-up for some reason, for some scheme that didn't pan out in the end. And that's what wrecked the man, not mere combat losses against an invincible enemy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, the facts are the facts...

Before Decker was able to give a statement, the Constellation's logs were transmitted to Enterprise and analyzed by Spock. If the records were anywhere near as detailed as those used in Court Marshall, lying would have been a complete waste of time on Decker's part. That theory falls through.

If the transporters were working, why didn't Kirk and the damage control team use it to beam back to Enterprise? That theory falls through too.

If the idea of keeping everyone on the ship was a sure bet for safety, then had Kirk done nothing with the Constellation (to distract the Planet Killer), the Enterprise and her crew would have still been fine. Of course, the Enterprise was being sucked into the Planet Killer which would have been a death similar to being on a planet eaten by it, so in actuality even though the Constellation survived, there was no guarantee that it would have. So that theory falls through.

Additionally, the Constellation was surprised by the Planet Killer to start with, and didn't know that Rigel was in danger while battling the thing. In both cases (the Constellation and Enterprise) there warp engines were being effected by the Planet Killer, and without warp, getting from it when it is intent on attacking you is pretty difficult. Decker was willing to use the Enterprise to save Rigel, but Rigel wasn't known to be at risk when his crew was killed. That theory falls flat also.

More to the point, you wish to read more into the character than was part of the story... which is fine, their are people who invent conspiracies for just about everything, why should this be any different. If you need a maniacal villain to enjoy the story, I guess Decker is just about your only choice in this episode. Who knows... maybe that is how you see life in general, bad guys lurking around every corner.

But if you are actually interested in what the story was all about, the heart of the story was to put someone like Kirk into a horrific situation where he lost his crew... without actually using either Kirk or the crew of the Enterprise. So for this episode Kirk and Decker are supposed to be ethically and morally equivalent as characters, in much the same way that the Constellation and Enterprise are supposed to be equivalent starships. Kirk's empathy for Decker was to help the audience draw the parallels between the two men.

And I would also point out that Roddenbery took the additional steps beyond just letting this episode stand on it's own by making Decker's son a central character in Star Trek Phase II. The bond between Kirk and Decker was so strong that Kirk actively looked out for Decker's son after that.


What it looks like to me is that you are trying to read Captain Tracy's characteristics into the character of Decker. The person you seem to be describing matches Tracy pretty closely, but is quite far off the base when applied to either Decker or Kirk.
 
Before Decker was able to give a statement, the Constellation's logs were transmitted to Enterprise and analyzed by Spock. If the records were anywhere near as detailed as those used in Court Marshall, lying would have been a complete waste of time on Decker's part. That theory falls through.

Initially, Decker wouldn't have been sane enough to care whether his lies were contradicted or not. Later on, he would have been sane enough to understand that none of them would come out of this mess alive anyway. That is, unless he had another shot at his wonderfully wacko original scheme...

OTOH, the logs would not necessarily have extended to the final, damning moments of the ship. If everything else was destroyed, why not the log recorders? (Decker could have seen to that with his hand phaser, just to be on the safe side.)

If the transporters were working, why didn't Kirk and the damage control team use it to beam back to Enterprise? That theory falls through too.

Not saying the transporters were all right. Just saying that they were not completely out of commission when the crew pleaded and Decker refused. Not because the (flimsy, even nonexistent) evidence would point either way, but because this interpretation caters for a certain new kind of drama.

Decker was willing to use the Enterprise to save Rigel, but Rigel wasn't known to be at risk when his crew was killed.

Why not? Decker's crew was following the same trail as Kirk's. Are we to assume that every science officer but Spock is incompetent?

By virtue of his long hunt, Decker knew more about the DDM than any of our heroes did. For all we know, he had the suicide-kaboom-in-the-maw thing all figured out, too, and this is exactly what he was originally attempting with the Constellation when either his ship or more probably his courage failed him.

More to the point, you wish to read more into the character than was part of the story... which is fine, their are people who invent conspiracies for just about everything, why should this be any different. If you need a maniacal villain to enjoy the story, I guess Decker is just about your only choice in this episode. Who knows... maybe that is how you see life in general, bad guys lurking around every corner.

Am I completely off kilter for reading a bit of disapproval here? ;)

Decker acts suspicious. He acts elusive. He acts irrational. And he acts hostile. Sure, he might have been a fine man before his encounter with the DDM (all starship skippers would be, if we believe in those psycho-probe tests Kirk flaunts in "Bread and Circuses") - but where you see dramatic potential in the interpretation that he snaps after his crew dies, I see equal if not greater potential in the theory that he snapped during the event, killing his crew through something more dramatic than mere failure to fight the invincible.

Such an alternate plotline would IMHO detract nothing from the Kirk/Decker comparison, either in terms of moralistic considerations or the ultimate dramatic effectiveness.

But if you are actually interested in what the story was all about

Never. That's for the unimaginative only. :p

The person you seem to be describing matches Tracy pretty closely, but is quite far off the base when applied to either Decker or Kirk.

Not really. If he's Decker, then he's a good match for Decker by default. And he's no Tracy in that he doesn't act out of selfish motivations when put in a threatening situation, then develop a megalomania to cover it up. Instead, he's a wannabe hero who cops out at the crucial moment, and then tries to make up for it, working through well-deserved guilt to a tragically meaningless conclusion.

And of course Kirk shouldn't be either Decker or Tracy, because he is Kirk. He should have his own, customized way of snapping under pressure...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo said:
Never. That's for the unimaginative only. :p
Well, I doubt that anyone would ever accuse you of being unimaginative... you've made up massive amounts of back story to support your ideas and haven't let the actual story stand in your way one bit.

Am I completely off kilter for reading a bit of disapproval here? ;)
If there is disapproval evident, it isn't of you as much as the fact that your posting this stuff in this section of the forums. I would think that your NuDDM would be better suited for the Fan Fiction section than the TOS section. But pretty much everything that you've put forward would fall under the classification of reimagining that episode rather than discussing the episode as it actually is.

But I would point out that your idea of a phaser wielding Decker destroying evidence sounds more like Tracy's character (as I pointed out before) than Decker.

So yeah, read as much into this as you want for your own enjoyment, but remember that there is a section devoted to this type of fan fiction.
 
Oh, I wouldn't recommend that you go there. To myopically declare one interpretation of a dramatic work as the only correct one won't win you any points. Not even if you manage to drag the actual writer to the public and make him tell exactly what he intended with the episode.

Writer intention isn't everything. In fact, writer intention is nothing, as regards television episodes where this intention is ultimately filtered through the creative efforts of the actors, directors, photographers and support people. Cases in point: "Spock's Brain" or "Turnabout Intruder"...

That aside, nothing in my version of the events contradicts anything shown on screen. Nor does it add more things than your version. I speculate that Decker had a plan that failed, you speculate that he exhibited poor judgement, and both assumptions require us to visualize that which wasn't visualized: the last moments of the Constellation crew. Once we are done with that, the extent of our separate interpretations of the episode has been reached, but interpretation as such continues - the writer doesn't give us a readymade product in any relevant sense. What Spinrad wrote was transformed by Daniels into instructions for Windom whose portrayal got enjoyed by both Shaw and Timo. And the chain continues here, with our interpretations being presented for new audiences. If I am to be banished to the fanfic section for that, it is your obligation to follow...

...After all, that's the native forum for blinders-on hero worship, your apparent hobby horse not only on this thread, but (judging by the avatar) possibly on these fori as well.

Timo Saloniemi
 
He made mistakes but I think 'fool' is kind of harsh. Eitherway he seemed to have been punished enough even before he became a human piece of toast.
 
Timo said:
That aside, nothing in my version of the events contradicts anything shown on screen. Nor does it add more things than your version. I speculate that Decker had a plan that failed, you speculate that he exhibited poor judgement, and both assumptions require us to visualize that which wasn't visualized: the last moments of the Constellation crew.
Funny, I thought your version required that we assume Decker to be a coward and liar without any prior evidence to that. Your version also requires that he destroy evidence with a hand phaser and that he use his crew as bait.

I'm sorry that you are offended, but when you can't support your points of views with evidence and logic, getting upset isn't going to change all that. Attack me, my avatar, Decker, Star Trek, whatever you want... I'm guessing that you have now replaced Decker with me as your maniacal villain du jour? Fine, I'm sure that you will invent all sorts of conspiracies to justify our exchange, and they'll be as rooted in facts as your description of events in Doomsday Machine.

May your next windmill put up as fierce a battle as today's, and may you always (at least in your own mind) be ever victorious.
 
Timo, you have to lose this one. If you're inventing major plot points, you're doing fan-fiction, not interpreting a standing work.
 
Decker was neither the hero nor the fool. He was insane. Crazy people make terrible decisions.

Never take an order from a guy who's talking to his hand.

decker,commodore.jpg
 
I'm sure I'll be attacked as defending my hero again... but I really think that you have to look at how this might effect command ability on a floating scale. Decker most likely wasn't the first to start inventing someone to converse with when left alone for an extended period, and I'm sure that he won't be the last. Many great commanders have displayed similar characteristics in similar settings.

life_socks.jpg
 
I always figured he was a good guy that was just having a really bad day (or month... year... etc)

Just like Captain Harriman of the Enterprise-B, he was described as a very great captain but was overly anxious and nervous because of the media aboard his ship. Those single few scenes destroyed his entire character throughout all of trek lore.
 
It's a safe bet that the people of the Rigel Colonies considered him a hero. The guy made some incredibly bad decisions though so I doubt he's somebody that Starfleet would want to put up on a pedestal. Starship captains are supposed to be smarter and a lot more stable than that^.
 
Dale Hoppert said:
Jackson_Roykirk said:I think that William Windom's performance was among the best in all of TOS, and in the top 10 of all Star Trek TV.

Don't you think I know that?!?
...followed by a matter-of fact and oddly sarcastic "there was, but not anymore!"
Those are my favorite lines and favorite scene from all of TOS.
 
Babaganoosh said:
^ I meant that Decker *should* have known the Planet Killer was...well, a planet killer. It should have been obvious to him. He was a fool if he didn't realize that.

I don't think even he was evil enough to *knowingly* beam his crew to their deaths, he was just an incompetent slob who got them killed anyway.
Objection: assumes incompetence not in evidence. To wit, saying Decker should have known the planet killer would destroy the planet his crew was left on assumes Decker would expect all the planets to be destroyed. The planet killer was on course for Rigel while two planets in system L-374 were left intact: we know this from Spock's statements delivered in contexts which we can consider authoritative. If the planet killer is willing to leave two planets intact and move on to another system, why could it not leave three planets behind?

Apparently, what happened was the planet killer appeared to have topped off when it destroyed the fourth planet in L-374 and trashing the Constellation. Evidence suggested that the planet killer was finished with the system and that beaming down was marginally less dangerous than remaining on board, and then the planet killer changed course and ate the third planet too. Seems straightforward enough, even if the programming of the planet killer is not obvious.
 
But then he took command of the Enterprise and began the hopeless battle all over again. Spock told him there was no way to blast through the hull of that machine. The only reason he didn't kill a second crew was Kirk distracting it and ordering Spock to assume command.

Decker's actions did ultimately lead to the destruction of the DDM and the saving of the Rigel Colony but it was through luck. His actions made no logical sense at the time he made them. He personally did nothing to deter or neutralize the DDM.
 
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