Of course, that was quite possibly the worst Spider-Man story ever written, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.
Spoilers Marvel's Ironheart
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
Agreed on both counts.
A couple of things I forgot to mention in my review:
I loved how the show played up how Obadiah Stane is still held up as a pillar of the community when the rest of us know the truth about what a terrible person he was and how he actually died.
Similarly, I loved how Mephisto laughed at Riri when she thought he was Dormammu and immediately dismissed him as nothing compared to him.
I loved how the show played up how Obadiah Stane is still held up as a pillar of the community when the rest of us know the truth about what a terrible person he was and how he actually died.
Similarly, I loved how Mephisto laughed at Riri when she thought he was Dormammu and immediately dismissed him as nothing compared to him.
Actually, you get a glimpse of that exact red tone when the camera briefly focuses on his spoon and you see his reflection. He has a red face and solid white eyes. It's a great little creepy moment but probably went by too fast. I had to go back and pause at the moment to make sure I saw it correctly.
It does rather feel like the lack of a chair for Dominique Thorne in the Doomsday announcement is a pretty bad sign for the storyline. Given that the show was filmed three years ago, Doomsday's writing team had full access to the Ironheart scripts, and maybe rough cuts of the show itself, so they could possibly claim they didn't include Riri because they weren't sure where the character would be at the end of this season...
Well, I wouldn't say the lack of a chair is indictive of anything. If nothing else, we know another round is coming at some point and the first round is missing a number of obviously missing people.
But for something like this, I wouldn't foresee her storyline of making a deal with Mephisto coming up on those films. I think the obvious intention is for a second season and I'm hoping that's what we get (even though I know it's a long shot, unfortunately).
It's not definitive, sure, but if she were in the movie, why wouldn't they have given her a chair to help drum up interest in the series? After all, many assumed that the lack of a chair for Olga Kurylenko meant her character wouldn't survive Thunderbolts*, and they were correct.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Riri appears in Secret Wars, and maybe has a minor cameo in Doomsday, but the odds of her having a significant presence in the latter seem slim.
Although I'm not expecting riri to show up in the Avengers movies, the casting announcements are not complete yet.
Dominique Thorne talked to Entertainment Weekly about Riri's decision:
Show creator and head writer Chinaka Hodge also talked them about how Mephisto was included in the show:
Thorne was "super excited" by Riri's turn to the dark side in the finale. "I think it's so yummy that Riri doesn't have to walk the traditional hero path," she tells EW. "She has already crossed some lines and figured she'll handle the consequences on the other side. So what exactly is the scope? What's the scale of those consequences? And does she continue to resist? Does she continue to do the right thing or does she lean into the other part of her?"
The actor adds that she wasn't surprised by Riri's decision to accept Mephisto's offer.
"It just helped to reinforce what we've been seeing from Riri since Wakanda Forever, which is that she's not majorly committed to this superhero mantle," Thorne says. "It's not something that she goes out chasing or seeking, but it's something that she has to think her way through and figure out and really make conscious choices at every major turning point until she gets to the truth of who she is and who therefore who Ironheart will be. That last moment brings it all home, boils it all down, and reiterates what we've been seeing since we've met Riri Williams, which is you have all this brilliance, you have all this potential, and you need to make a choice."
Show creator and head writer Chinaka Hodge also talked them about how Mephisto was included in the show:
"That's a really great question," Hodge says when EW asks her if Mephisto's debut was a mandate from Marvel. "I wish I could answer it more plainly. It was not my decision alone. I was empowered by Marvel to make that decision... I don't know what will happen next with the character or with Sasha in the MCU. But as a fan, I'm really hoping to see him make lots of appearances."
As much as that ending made me want to scream, I think Cohen did a terrific job in his role. He was creepy, charming, menacing, humorous, and a bit skeezy.
Also, props to the show for making Zeke a nuanced and somewhat ambiguous character.Aaron Alden did a good job.
Also, props to the show for making Zeke a nuanced and somewhat ambiguous character.
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After watching the back half of the series, my feelings are pretty similar to the first three. Riri is a wonderfully flawed protagonist who manages to neither be a hero nor a villain, but the tonal whiplash between the different subplots makes the series feel something less than the sum of its parts, making me wish that Riri was placed into a better story.
Episode 4 was the absolute nadir of the season, and felt like largely pointless wheel spinning. Mephisto told Robbins that Riri was responsible for John's death, but then Robbins decides to wait an entire episode to do anything about it, just because. Sure, that helped this episode feel like a tightening noose, as we see one person after another turn against Riri due to her bad decisions, but other than the introduction of Zelma (which really should have happened earlier in the series), nothing much occurs here.
Episode 5 was a weird mix of some of the most effective and least effective stuff of the season.
The opening fight between Riri and "the gang" was just awful on so many levels. First, as was noted upthread, it was mega unrealistic how much damage a bunch of non-superpowered nobodies could take. Second, they were all previously characterized as being more small-time criminals, not hardened killers, and so it felt like an unrealistic heel turn. Related to this, they were all played as more "cool kids" or even comic relief up until this point, with John the only one with real menace. At least they all turned on Robbins at the very end, but "the gang" remained an odd section of the show that just didn't fit right through to the end. I maintain this was all just a stunning example of miscasting in an otherwise grounded show. They could have been just fine in, say, Ms. Marvel, but Riri needed a much more grounded gang to bounce against.
On the good side was all of the family stuff involving her mother, Natalie, Xavier, etc. She went through her long, dark night of the soul here, hit bottom, and realized what she needed was not to go alone, but to rely upon those close to her. The dynamic between Riri and her mom is so damn good I don't know why she was put totally on the sidelines for most of the front half of the series. And Riri's trauma over losing Natalie (mark 1) is the core of her character, so the closer the series comes to focusing on this, the better.
Final episode felt kinda meh to me, up until the end. The extended prologue where we see more of Robbins's backstory was exactly the sort of unneeded scene that would be cut from a theatrical release. Riri dispatches Ezekiel with ease, which I didn't really mind, save for the "unfinished business" line - another loose end we're likely to never see. Riri also dispatches Robbins with comparable ease. Though, of course, that's because Mephisto was the real antagonist of the entire season - likely the one who set Riri on this path towards temptation to begin with. Sasha Baron Cohen does a marvelous job here, properly menacing without ever mugging the camera. I don't think he belonged in this story per se, but in terms of execution, 10/10, no notes.
My real issue with this season isn't that maybe Riri is on the path to being a villain, or at least not a hero. My real issue is that like so many post-Endgame MCU products (particularly on Disney+) there's no sense of narrative closure. We now have the hanging threads of Riri being on a path to damnation as part of the deal to bring Natalie back, Zeke being out there waiting for some half-assed revenge, and Parker Robbins (now hood-less) planning something with Zelma. This is yet another series with promise and little payoff, treating us like junkies who need to be strung along to the next hit. A hit which almost certainly will never come, because even if the showrunners originally hoped for a Season 2, the most we can hope for is whenever Champions happens, some of these threads will be revisited.
So in the end, I still think Riri was one of the best-constructed characters of the modern MCU. People who have read her comic arc have said this is a big trade up. But she wasn't placed into the right story. Indeed, the showrunner all but said that Mephisto (as one example) was included due to studio dictates. This feels Frankensteined together, where a more tightly-focused, movie-length product which kept only the parts that worked best would have been much more effective.
Episode 4 was the absolute nadir of the season, and felt like largely pointless wheel spinning. Mephisto told Robbins that Riri was responsible for John's death, but then Robbins decides to wait an entire episode to do anything about it, just because. Sure, that helped this episode feel like a tightening noose, as we see one person after another turn against Riri due to her bad decisions, but other than the introduction of Zelma (which really should have happened earlier in the series), nothing much occurs here.
Episode 5 was a weird mix of some of the most effective and least effective stuff of the season.
The opening fight between Riri and "the gang" was just awful on so many levels. First, as was noted upthread, it was mega unrealistic how much damage a bunch of non-superpowered nobodies could take. Second, they were all previously characterized as being more small-time criminals, not hardened killers, and so it felt like an unrealistic heel turn. Related to this, they were all played as more "cool kids" or even comic relief up until this point, with John the only one with real menace. At least they all turned on Robbins at the very end, but "the gang" remained an odd section of the show that just didn't fit right through to the end. I maintain this was all just a stunning example of miscasting in an otherwise grounded show. They could have been just fine in, say, Ms. Marvel, but Riri needed a much more grounded gang to bounce against.
On the good side was all of the family stuff involving her mother, Natalie, Xavier, etc. She went through her long, dark night of the soul here, hit bottom, and realized what she needed was not to go alone, but to rely upon those close to her. The dynamic between Riri and her mom is so damn good I don't know why she was put totally on the sidelines for most of the front half of the series. And Riri's trauma over losing Natalie (mark 1) is the core of her character, so the closer the series comes to focusing on this, the better.
Final episode felt kinda meh to me, up until the end. The extended prologue where we see more of Robbins's backstory was exactly the sort of unneeded scene that would be cut from a theatrical release. Riri dispatches Ezekiel with ease, which I didn't really mind, save for the "unfinished business" line - another loose end we're likely to never see. Riri also dispatches Robbins with comparable ease. Though, of course, that's because Mephisto was the real antagonist of the entire season - likely the one who set Riri on this path towards temptation to begin with. Sasha Baron Cohen does a marvelous job here, properly menacing without ever mugging the camera. I don't think he belonged in this story per se, but in terms of execution, 10/10, no notes.
My real issue with this season isn't that maybe Riri is on the path to being a villain, or at least not a hero. My real issue is that like so many post-Endgame MCU products (particularly on Disney+) there's no sense of narrative closure. We now have the hanging threads of Riri being on a path to damnation as part of the deal to bring Natalie back, Zeke being out there waiting for some half-assed revenge, and Parker Robbins (now hood-less) planning something with Zelma. This is yet another series with promise and little payoff, treating us like junkies who need to be strung along to the next hit. A hit which almost certainly will never come, because even if the showrunners originally hoped for a Season 2, the most we can hope for is whenever Champions happens, some of these threads will be revisited.
So in the end, I still think Riri was one of the best-constructed characters of the modern MCU. People who have read her comic arc have said this is a big trade up. But she wasn't placed into the right story. Indeed, the showrunner all but said that Mephisto (as one example) was included due to studio dictates. This feels Frankensteined together, where a more tightly-focused, movie-length product which kept only the parts that worked best would have been much more effective.
For all of my Mephisto musings, I never acknowledged how marvelous Cohen was in the role just as you described. This is an even higher achievement in my eyes considering I typically don't like his characters (the sole exception being Les Misérables). I look forward to his inevitable return (even if it's not crossing paths with Riri again).
See the Dominque Thorne interview I quoted earlier. I agree with her notion about Riri not seeking out to be a Riri and in doing so, she stands apart from others. I say for the better because it's refreshing to see someone who isn't clearly defined by heroic characteristics. Like I said in my review, this particular path works best if we get to see her deal with Mephisto play out properly and not left hanging. Which leads to your next point...
I understand this sentiment but it's not one I agree with, at least not entirely. If we could trust that this show will return like Loki did, then I have no issues with these hanging threads. Serialized shows have plenty of hanging threads after each season and they're better off not quickly resolving all of them before each season's conclusion.
However, I do agree that it is frustrating that we get so many one-and-dones, especially when they're not intended to. For every Hawkeye and Echo (and arguably Falcon and the Winter Soldier, follow-up films notwithstanding) that can stand on their own, we get shows like Moon Knight, Agatha All Along, and now Ironheart, which mostly stand on their own but will be better served if they get more seasons (and in-between, we there are shows like She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel who can stand on their own but many of us would love to see more).
Unfortunately, I don't foresee this changing anytime soon, regardless of Brad Winderbaum's insistence that Marvel is focusing on more multi-season shows. At the moment, I only see that happening for Daredevil: Born Again. I would love to be wrong but it's highly unlikely all of the shows I want to see continuing will get any kind of standalone follow-ups.
It's been ten years since I last saw Iron Man 1, and I did not like it, but I have to defend El Duderino, with a little common sense.
1. Obadiah Stane did not kill Howard and Maria Stark, unless he was a high ranking member of Hydra, who sicced evil Bucky on Iron-Man's parents. If this unproven hypothesis is true, then he really put the work in and deserved to win, and more so, Obadiah's premature expiration, forcing Alexander "Robert Redford" Pierce to pick up the slack, might very well be why Hydra lost in Captain America II.
2. Howard and Tony were womanizing drunks with no care for the business side of Stark Industries, who would crawl into a bottle for every other month while the company ticked on under the refined stewardship of Stane. Sure if the status quo continued with either Stark popping their head above the rum every now and then to reap the global approval and praise, for all of Obadia's hard work, Stane might have lived on to the Blip and beyond as a servant and lacky to the family Stark, never receiving the laurels he deserved, except for of course the billions in stock options. Alfred Pennyworth is a Billionaire too.
3. Was there a branding issue right up there with the Four Seasons Home and Gardening? Obadiah thought that he was hiring Xu Wenwu, Shang Chi's daddy, an immortal unstoppable mystical assassin marshaling a massive army of magic ninjas... But inadvertently procured the services of a start up of third world desert rats, still armed with ak-47s. Tony Stark should have been dead, and the world would have live happily ever after, nurtured by Obadiah Stane's beneficence... Until Thanos won the Battle of New York, and painstakingly sent his soldiers house to house for 70 years to kill half the human population. It's not Stane's fault that Stark was so drunk when then the landmine took out his Humvee in the first act, that Tony received far less than terminal trauma from the experience.
4. Again there's no evidence, but just look at her, Stane had to have been in love with Maria Stark. So Howard had to die for keeping them apart, and Maria had to die for being oblivious to their destiny, if she didn't reject him at some point during their three decade long friendship, and Tony Stark had to die for not being his son, and further more Tony Stark still had to die harder because Ezekiel Stane kinda sucks. Which are all completely very logical reasons to do a series of non insane acts.
5. What the fuck business did a 70 year old businessman with zero combat history have test piloting the Iron Monger weapons system? The Stark Industries Director of Risk Management, worried about voiding the man's insurance claims, should have stepped in and told him to take a bench, while they found the marvel comics version of some one as disposable as Hal Jordan... Or Maybe tap the intrepid Maria Rambeau earlier than expected as a test pilot?
Well, no relevant known military experience anyway.
Stane was old enough to be a business partner to Howard in 1967, so it's not unlikely (given his militarist personality) that he served in Korea or Vietnam.
Just finished watching the show and I can honestly say; "meh". Not terrible by any means and I really like Riri as a character and enjoy Dominique Thorne in the role . . . but the show itself just dragged for me. It feels like another one of those projects that was designed to be a movie, but got padded out to work as a streaming show. Too many characters felt like two dimensional caricatures for my tastes, and the main villain just seemed silly to me from the jump. Yes he felt dangerous, but it was the "reckless idiot running around the house with sharp scissors" kind of dangerous, not the intelligent and calculating kind.
All that said, I hope the show gets a follow-up as there's some promising threads left hanging, but at the same time I'm not exactly holding my breath either.
As for whether he served or not; not everyone of a certain age was drafted. And even if his number came up, if he was already working for one of the DoD's main weapons contractors like say 'Stark Industries', that'd probably earn him an exemption.
All that said, I hope the show gets a follow-up as there's some promising threads left hanging, but at the same time I'm not exactly holding my breath either.
Somehow I don't see Howard partnering with an 18 year old; At that age, Obadiah would be lucky to have been his intern! Going by the photo of the two of them in the first movie, it looks like they photoshopped late 70's/early 80's Jeff Bridges, which makes more sense chronologically.
As for whether he served or not; not everyone of a certain age was drafted. And even if his number came up, if he was already working for one of the DoD's main weapons contractors like say 'Stark Industries', that'd probably earn him an exemption.
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I might be remembering the story wrong, but IIRC he had enough influence over Howard that he was able to manipulate him into having Vanko declared persona non grata and extradicted to a Soviet gulag...
Maybe from active service, but if so it seems even more likely that he wouldn't be Howard's "ginea pig" (or co-pilot) on projects, so maybe there's some experience there.
Or maybe he's just a petty, vindictive narcissist that didn't want to risk someone else having the "power" if they got it to work.
Or conceivably both.
