He was supposed to tell Khan how his portfolio was doing.
Marla McGivers as a Traitor...
- Thread starter Praetor
- Start date
He was supposed to tell Khan how his portfolio was doing.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
To me, the only questionable thing about McGivers is that Khan found ANYTHING attractive about her beyond her looks at all.
She comes across as a wishy-washy little wallflower who has no ability to make or stick with decisions whatsoever.
Khan calls her a "superior woman"...HAH! He completely subjugates her emotionally with what...two lines of dialogue?
If she had been portrayed as internally strong and independant minded such that SHE made the first move with Khan, THEN I'd be more willing to buy her as "superior".
She comes across as a wishy-washy little wallflower who has no ability to make or stick with decisions whatsoever.
Khan calls her a "superior woman"...HAH! He completely subjugates her emotionally with what...two lines of dialogue?
If she had been portrayed as internally strong and independant minded such that SHE made the first move with Khan, THEN I'd be more willing to buy her as "superior".
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NOTHING in that ep to support such a theory, speculation from some fans about "topping from the bottom" notwithstanding.
If that had been her game, she would have been more like Hoshi or Marlene Moreau in the Mirror Universe.
Rhue passed away many years ago, I don't recall when. I think it was from complications from MS. My mom said she appeared in some daytime or evening soap for a time in the 1980s, shortly after TWOK came out, in wheelchair, of course. She played some kind of sinister character and (per Mom) passed shortly after either her role or the show ended.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
She HAS no character....she's a mousy little wallflower who did the "womanly wilt" at Khan's first few words. There is NOTHING exceptional, or impressive about her, certainly nothing that would draw the attention of a warrior-king like Khan.
McGivers is a huge gaping plot hole in an otherwise excellent episode. That's all there is to it.
Khan had computer access, yes. But I seriously doubt anything classified was revealed in that access. Spock was keeping tabs onto what Khan was reading after all.
Remember, Khan still needed members of Kirk's crew to control the ship. That was pretty much the point of the last part of the episode.
He learned enough to shut off life support and seal off the bridge.
If something like this had happened today with a U.S. Navy ship (a destroyer takes on a boatload of refugees and they end up seizing control of the vessel even temporarily) then the Captain of the Navy ship would be lucky if he wasn't sent to prison.
This would actually explain why Terrell doesn't know Khan's next door in TWOK, too. I mean, the Reliant crew treats Ceti Alpha as if no one's even seen the solar system before--no "Hey, aren't we missing a planet here?"Probably the 'real' reason why Kirk stranded them and didn't report it, then.
Such an assumption would, however, paint Kirk as a disgustingly irresponsible commander--but then as someone (wish I could remember who) posted once here, that was a primary theme of TWOK, particularly apparent when he lets the Reliant get within phaser range. And there, Kirk's recklessness finally cost him something he cared about, leading to his growth as a person and stuff (or judging by Star Trek III, maybe not).
Well, consider also that Kirk's recklessness in III cost him even more (his son, his ship, and likely the remainder of his career) and it was only through the heroism in IV that he wasn't royally burned for it.
One thing that was interesting to me was that Chekov only recognized the name Botany Bay on the seatbelt buckle and didn't blink twice about the planet. That opens some interesting possibilities. If we assume that he was indeed on board for Khan to have recognized him, is it possible that Kirk didn't tell anyone outside the senior staff (which Chekov at the time was presumably not) where they were depositing Khan?
I guess I'm trying to figure out how much it's possible for Kirk to have hidden and from whom.
Kirk's logs from the episode, from Memory Alpha:
I'm now skeptical that Kirk would have not reported what he did, even if he was still reckless. I'd rather Kirk not go that far.
It was always implied that Kirk had 'broad powers' in executing Starfleet policy as he saw fit. Could it be that this time he went a little too far in these powers, was a bit too reckless, and instead of Kirk and crew falsifying or covering up anything, Starfleet Command, not wanting to 'publicly' acknowledge any of it and possibly generate a bad rep, simply classified his logs and ordered anyone already in the know (Kirk and his senior staff) to keep quiet about it all?
We could then explain Starfleet ordering the Reliant to just go from candidate system to candidate system without access to the relevant Enterprise logs to know not to go to Ceti Alpha, and Chekov for his part not knowing where they had dropped the 'seed' in the first place, only recognizing the name once they were there?
As for McGivers? I imagine she was listed as having 'died in the line of duty' like Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before.'
One thing that was interesting to me was that Chekov only recognized the name Botany Bay on the seatbelt buckle and didn't blink twice about the planet. That opens some interesting possibilities. If we assume that he was indeed on board for Khan to have recognized him, is it possible that Kirk didn't tell anyone outside the senior staff (which Chekov at the time was presumably not) where they were depositing Khan?
I guess I'm trying to figure out how much it's possible for Kirk to have hidden and from whom.
Kirk's logs from the episode, from Memory Alpha:
Is it possible that Kirk never transmitted these logs, that he and the other senior staff ultimately decided to control the information about this event disseminated among the crew? If he didn't report exactly what was done with the Botany Bay crew, what did he report to Starfleet? And what did he report about his missing crewman? Did he list them dead?
I'm now skeptical that Kirk would have not reported what he did, even if he was still reckless. I'd rather Kirk not go that far.
It was always implied that Kirk had 'broad powers' in executing Starfleet policy as he saw fit. Could it be that this time he went a little too far in these powers, was a bit too reckless, and instead of Kirk and crew falsifying or covering up anything, Starfleet Command, not wanting to 'publicly' acknowledge any of it and possibly generate a bad rep, simply classified his logs and ordered anyone already in the know (Kirk and his senior staff) to keep quiet about it all?
We could then explain Starfleet ordering the Reliant to just go from candidate system to candidate system without access to the relevant Enterprise logs to know not to go to Ceti Alpha, and Chekov for his part not knowing where they had dropped the 'seed' in the first place, only recognizing the name once they were there?
As for McGivers? I imagine she was listed as having 'died in the line of duty' like Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before.'
In fairness, Praetor, his son would've died anyway.
That is some interesting conspiracy theorizing, though. Of course we don't want Kirk to be so independent as to be rogue, but it's fun to make allegations, especially with strong circumstantial bases as we have here.
I like this bit of the log entry:
Way to take responsibility in checking up on Khan's colony, dude.
That is some interesting conspiracy theorizing, though. Of course we don't want Kirk to be so independent as to be rogue, but it's fun to make allegations, especially with strong circumstantial bases as we have here.
I like this bit of the log entry:
Way to take responsibility in checking up on Khan's colony, dude.
I for one am not trying to demonize him. I'm just trying to understand what, to me, seems like a rather reckless choice with the portrayal as shown in TWoK, rather than discounting it to convoluted writing.
I know.Agreed. Waiting one hundred years to see what happened was a bit much, IMO. I don't think he was a 'rogue' per se but I think we can all agree this is a bit where him playing fast and loose with the rules came back to bite him in the ass.
Actually, other than supply runs, Kirk wouldn't be the one to check up on the colony. That wasn't his job. That would be some science ship, acting safely from orbit. Assuming that his log did get transferred to the Fleet, someone after that point dropped the ball - some bureaucraft.. somewhere, who forgot to assign (or didn't want to assign) the USS Dongivaphuc to check in on Kahn's 100 people.
Or maybe they did, and the USS Dongivaphuc arrived on schedule just a week after the 'boom', and thought everyone had died. Heck, the upgraded senors in the Reliant 15 years later barely picked them up.
If Kirk can be faulted, it would have to be that he didn't think McGivers was a weasel woman. She was, however, and he sent her to live with her abusive boyfriend, where she died from worms.
Actually, the person at fault, in this case, would be a records officer who would likely be summarily shot (or, at the very least brigged to await trial for treason). Remember, it wasn't Kirk that allowed any wrongdoing, it was McGivers who betrayed the ship and crew.
That would make sense, actually.
Wait. Wasn't Ben Finney the records officer? There's our explanation! He was crazy.
Probably orchestrated the whole thing to make Kirk look bad, planning weeks if not months in advance...
^What is an "ion pod," anyway? What are you seeing from it that you can't see from the bridge? Kirk put him in there to die. Finney was too smart for him.
Well, if it was assumed they were dead, that explains some of it--but it very much appears from Reliant's activities that Ceti Alpha was all but forgotten.
Kirk could have followed up on his request for a science vessel, anyway, by radio.
Here's a question: what would've happened with Khan if he hadn't tried to take over the ship? What is the legal standing of genetically engineered humans on post-Eugenics Wars Earth? Certainly no Starfleet career for him. Are there other professions from which he is barred? Is his very existence illegal? Would he face trial for war crimes (it seems less likely, but who knows)? Or would he and his followers be summarily stuck in the Institute or a similar rehabilitative prison, like Jack would be a century later? He did show some rather antisocial (as the Federation would have it) tendencies.
Vance said:
Well, if it was assumed they were dead, that explains some of it--but it very much appears from Reliant's activities that Ceti Alpha was all but forgotten.
Kirk could have followed up on his request for a science vessel, anyway, by radio.
Here's a question: what would've happened with Khan if he hadn't tried to take over the ship? What is the legal standing of genetically engineered humans on post-Eugenics Wars Earth? Certainly no Starfleet career for him. Are there other professions from which he is barred? Is his very existence illegal? Would he face trial for war crimes (it seems less likely, but who knows)? Or would he and his followers be summarily stuck in the Institute or a similar rehabilitative prison, like Jack would be a century later? He did show some rather antisocial (as the Federation would have it) tendencies.
Well, the planet's name may not have had any emotional significance to Chekov, certianly. It doesn't mean that Kahn was really forgotten, but it had been 15 years with no news and nothing of importance - but, then, that's as it should have been. The bigger question is why Fleet didn't inform Kirk of what had happened.
Could have, but why? She he have also checked in on the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident"? Had regular coffee breaks aboard the Fesarius? Maybe stop by every couple of weeks to see how Cyrano Jones was doing with those tribbles?
At the end of the episode, Kirk's job was done. For the sake of his ship, he beamed down Kahn's crew, and the traitor, and then filed his report. Star Fleet, at that point, was responsible for what happened - Kirk had other duties to perform.
Really tough call. Kirk himself wasn't sure. This bit (the briefing room discussion) was a bit of an allegory to the Nazi war crime trials still being held in the late 1960s. A whole generation has passed, did the prosecution, to the degree it was still being done, still make sense? Trek's answer was emphaticlly "yes" - since the Nazi of the episode, Kahn, was every bit as much of a monster still as he once had been.
Realistically, Kirk's solution, exploding twin planet not-withstanding, was probably the most logical one. Star Fleet didn't keep the death penalty for much at that time, and certainly it would be hard to justify for crimes that happened centuries ago (though a trial and conviction would be assured). Hard to imagine Kahn having a much different fate than what he got, really.
Even Kahn himself seemed resigned, since his plan was really looking for a primitive world with which to rule, and using the Enterprise to get him on that throne.
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