Kirk was always being distracted: Edith, Elaan, Rayna...
Marla McGivers as a Traitor...
- Thread starter Praetor
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In many ways, I find the psychology of McGivers' quick flips for, against and again for Khan quite plausible. She's an admirer of superman philosophy, so naturally she'd like to see those qualities in herself, too - she'd take her fate in her own hands if the opportunity presented itself. OTOH, she's submissive in a topping-from-the-bottom sort of way, and plays that part to a realistic hilt: in the end, she gets everything she wants from both Khan and Kirk, while seemingly being subjugated by both.
Kirk's reaction to the flip-flop betrayals appears realistic in the context, too: he appreciates Khan and his nonlethal ways to power, so he'd probably show the same sort of appreciation to McGivers' no-harm-done betrayal, too. That is, out of a sense of kinship and honor to early promises, he'd mete out relatively mild punishment, and go against regs in doing so. Which means he couldn't really make enemies in the process, or those enemies would tell Starfleet about his breach of regs. Banishing McGivers along with Khan would be the ideal package for him, her and him alike.
And Kirk has "banished" dissidents before: Bailey in "Corbomite" went his merry way when both sides agreed that working under Kirk wasn't working out...
How MccGivers ended up in Starfleet with a psych profile like that may seem weird - but surely she could hide her tendencies easily enough in the various tests. And surely she would, realizing how badly her übermensch self-image would jar with her Starfleet ambitions. So the mystery isn't how she could get in. The mystery is why she would.
But it need not be that big a mystery. From a small but suggestive personal pool of data, I'd argue that McGivers' type is quite common for females volunteering into male-majority military or paramilitary organizations, as those offer a little bit of everything for an ambitious false-submissive or switch...
The thing is, the pool of data from today might not quite apply in Trek because Starfleet probably ain't a male realm only recently opened up for female volunteers. But much of the argument would still hold.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk's reaction to the flip-flop betrayals appears realistic in the context, too: he appreciates Khan and his nonlethal ways to power, so he'd probably show the same sort of appreciation to McGivers' no-harm-done betrayal, too. That is, out of a sense of kinship and honor to early promises, he'd mete out relatively mild punishment, and go against regs in doing so. Which means he couldn't really make enemies in the process, or those enemies would tell Starfleet about his breach of regs. Banishing McGivers along with Khan would be the ideal package for him, her and him alike.
And Kirk has "banished" dissidents before: Bailey in "Corbomite" went his merry way when both sides agreed that working under Kirk wasn't working out...
How MccGivers ended up in Starfleet with a psych profile like that may seem weird - but surely she could hide her tendencies easily enough in the various tests. And surely she would, realizing how badly her übermensch self-image would jar with her Starfleet ambitions. So the mystery isn't how she could get in. The mystery is why she would.
But it need not be that big a mystery. From a small but suggestive personal pool of data, I'd argue that McGivers' type is quite common for females volunteering into male-majority military or paramilitary organizations, as those offer a little bit of everything for an ambitious false-submissive or switch...
The thing is, the pool of data from today might not quite apply in Trek because Starfleet probably ain't a male realm only recently opened up for female volunteers. But much of the argument would still hold.
Timo Saloniemi
Generally, when a member of Star Fleet does something wacky, it's because of some spores or hormonal condition or galaxy-edge barrier or alien virus or a strange planetary condition which causes complex chains of water molecules or the like. McGivers has no excuse except that's she's an historian. Not much motivation visible to the human eye.
She was obsessed and INFATUATED with the past...and then when it came to life she went for it and it was too overwhelming to resist. In I agree that it happened to quickly and that this actress really didn't pull it off but this is the rationalization for this and for me it works.
For example...say Kirk was a real person and I'm flying around a starship a couple of thousand years from now as a starship historian...we find Kirk and Company in a pod and bring him aboard..I'd probably drop my drawers right there if I was obsessed and infatuated with Kirk -- which I'm not (LOL)....
She was obsessed and INFATUATED with the past...and then when it came to life she was overwhelmed and was easily seduced. In reality, I agree that it happened to quickly and that this actress really didn't pull it off but this is the rationalization for this and for me it works.
For example...say Kirk was a real person and I'm flying around a starship a couple of thousand years from now as a starship historian...we find Kirk and Company in a state of suspended animation and bring him aboard and revive him.........I'd probably drop my drawers right there if I was obsessed and infatuated with Kirk -- which I'm not (LOL)....
Has anyone pointed out a reason that Captain Kirk might've not wanted Marla McGivers to stand trial?
A trial (or for that matter even bringing back any of Khans people) would've certainly revealed the fact that Captain Kirk gave Khan COMPUTER ACCESS!!!
COMPUTER ACCESS for a man he already suspected of being one of the missing "superman".
Khan used that computer access to take over the ship.
No matter how you cut it, that was a staggering lack of judgement on Kirks part.
A trial (or for that matter even bringing back any of Khans people) would've certainly revealed the fact that Captain Kirk gave Khan COMPUTER ACCESS!!!
COMPUTER ACCESS for a man he already suspected of being one of the missing "superman".
Khan used that computer access to take over the ship.
No matter how you cut it, that was a staggering lack of judgement on Kirks part.
Plus, there's the embarrassment that Khan's handful of people managed a takeover of the huge ship.
We have no evidence that Kirk gave Khan any sort of access beyond read-only, though. Denying that from Khan would probably go against the UFP Constitution, the Seldonis IV Conventions and the Geneva Accords... At most, we could blame Kirk for setting the content filter too loosely so that Khan could access information useful for his nefarious plans.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
How would Kirk have know what Khan might useful, at that time?
Indeed. He did withhold information initially, but actually loosened up after confirming that Khan was Khan... And while Kirk knew Khan might be dangerous, he didn't seem to believe he would be hostile. Even after all those hijack hijinks, Kirk was quite merciful to Khan - the two really parted as friends, not enemies.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
No one's blaming her just for banging Khan, though. That's SOP for Starfleet.
Actually when Khan first takes over the Enterprise and seals the bridge with its environmental systems cut off, Spock specifically says something to the effect of
"He studied our technical manuals quite thoroughly".
So obviously what Khan got out of the computer was very useful in seizing the ship.
Of course, he needed the cooperation of the crew to actually fly it at warp speed as there are no onscreen indications that the Enterprise with Khan in control ever managed that.
i dont know if i would go that far but yeah it was odd how fast they forgave khan for taking over the ship and almost killing them.
mcgivers at least in the end came to the aid of kirk and prevented his death but khan had every intention to killing kirk and as many of the crew as needed to aid in his plans for conquest/.
and what they did was risky.
what happened if some stray merchant ship or ship of exploration just happened along and khan and his supermen had taken it over.
i sorta wonder if all the officers go through the academy and have the same level of training or if some are more mission specialists .
their primary training is in their field of speciality and they only have a minimal of starfleet training.
but in the end mcgivers suffered a pretty horrible fate.
Did Khan really have lethal intent? He didn't follow through with it at any point, to be sure. He could have killed Kirk and the rest of the bridge team easily enough with the life support sabotage, and the rest of the crew could still have been blackmailed to do Khan's bidding. Instead, Khan went for nonlethal means. His karate chops were never established to have killed anybody, either.
Perhaps he was going to live up to his reputation as a likeable tyrant?
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps he was going to live up to his reputation as a likeable tyrant?
Timo Saloniemi
Well at the end, Khan was trying to blow up the Enterprise.
I would say that was lethal intent.
His goal with the life support cut off on the bridge was not to kill the command staff but to force them to cooperate with him later.
He basically said that when he said that he made a mistake with the bridge because "suffocating together bred heroic comraderie among the officers" or something to that effect
Ummm...he had Kirk in the decompression chamber and thought he'd killed him when the video got cut off, and was sending Spock to die next. That's pretty lethal intent right there.
IIRC, they didn't know who they were dealing with at first so there might be some regulation slippage there.
yep,..
KHAN: Each of you in turn will go in there. Die while the others watch.
MARLA: Khan. There's no reason I must watch this, is there?
KHAN: But I hoped you would be stronger. If any one of you joins me, anyone! I'll let him live. It's so useless!
JOACHIM: We've lost the channel. How do I regain picture?
KHAN: It does not matter. The Captain is dead. Take Mister Spock next.
and yes if he couldnt have enterprise as a ship of conquest he certainly intended to destroy her and her crew..
KHAN: If I understood your manuals, that's an overload in progress. Your ship flares up like an exploding sun within minutes.
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