Marla McGivers as a Traitor...

[Praetor]

I've recently been contemplating the idea of Marla McGivers betraying the crew for Khan in 'Space Seed.'

What do any of you think of the plausibility of her betrayal?

In some ways it seemed to come out of left field, but there was a bit of a setup with her obsession with historic figures, but doesn't it seem like a leap for a trained officer to betray her shipmates for that reason?

 

[JustKate]

Yes yes yes yes yes!

(I'll bet that answer surprises you, Praetor. Or not. )

We're supposed to forgive her, I guess, as Kirk did, because she did it for "love." Yeah, right.

I won't say it's impossible for a Starfleet officer to forget her obligations and loyalties and duties and friends and family and oath and training for "love" or lust or hero worship or whatever the heck it was that she felt for Khan. But, jeez, it happened so fast, even by the standards of network TV. That's one big problem.

A bigger one for me is that the whole situation is just totally sexist - and that's not a word I use that often. I mean, yes, I realize the show was shot in the 1960s, so we need to make allowances for changing standards, and I do. But the standards haven't changed that much - not for treachery. Even in the 1960s, a woman who would betray her people was called a traitor or a collaborator. That's what they were called in WWII, anyway. She wasn't patted on the head and allowed to stand by her man.

Mildred Gillars, better known as Axis Sally, an American citizen who broadcast propaganda for the Nazis during WWII - she stayed in Germany, by the way, partly because she fell in love with a German (but also because she had Nazi sympathies, apparently) - served 10 years in prison. And she was tried in 1949. Mind you, she got a much lighter sentence than men convicted of similar crimes, but it was definitely more than a pat on the head and a warning to go and sin no more.

If a man had done the same thing Marla did, for as little reason, he would have ended up in the brig, transported to the nearest starbase for trial. But of course, a male Starfleet officer would not do such a thing - not in the Trek universe - because the men are strong and noble. Unlike Marla, who everybody understood couldn't help it. Because she was "in love," and a mere woman couldn't be expected to put duty before that.

Yuck.

 

[Praetor]

Yes yes yes yes yes!

(I'll bet that answer surprises you, Praetor. Or not. )

Yeah, since you planted the notion in my head to start with!

We're supposed to forgive her, I guess, as Kirk did, because she did it for "love." Yeah, right.

I won't say it's impossible for a Starfleet officer to forget her obligations and loyalties and duties and friends and family and oath and training for "love" or lust or hero worship or whatever the heck it was that she felt for Khan. But, jeez, it happened so fast, even by the standards of network TV. That's one big problem.

I'm personally not able to forgive her. I find her morally deplorable. Love as her excuse is just terribly weak. I tend to infer that McGivers was probably already a misfit in Starfleet, who might have been better off in civilian service. One might wonder how she could her commission or made it through the Academy in the first place, as her mind seemed to be stuck in another time period. (In that regard, I can somewhat relate.) Perhaps she joined Starfleet as an escape, and then realized that it really wasn't one? Then she meets this man offering her the man of the past in the flesh and swoons...

A bigger one for me is that the whole situation is just totally sexist - and that's not a word I use that often. I mean, yes, I realize the show was shot in the 1960s, so we need to make allowances for changing standards, and I do. But the standards haven't changed that much - not for treachery. Even in the 1960s, a woman who would betray her people was called a traitor or a collaborator. That's what they were called in WWII, anyway. She wasn't patted on the head and allowed to stand by her man.

Mildred Gillars, better known as Axis Sally, an American citizen who broadcast propaganda for the Nazis during WWII - she stayed in Germany, by the way, partly because she fell in love with a German (but also because she had Nazi sympathies, apparently) - served 10 years in prison. And she was tried in 1949. Mind you, she got a much lighter sentence than men convicted of similar crimes, but it was definitely more than a pat on the head and a warning to go and sin no more.

If a man had done the same thing Marla did, for as little reason, he would have ended up in the brig, transported to the nearest starbase for trial. But of course, a male Starfleet officer would not do such a thing - not in the Trek universe - because the men are strong and noble. Unlike Marla, who everybody understood couldn't help it. Because she was "in love," and a mere woman couldn't be expected to put duty before that.

Yuck.

Well said. I think that while her background motivations for falling for Khan can be somewhat retconned, this is a very valid point. I wonder what it would have been like for the plot had Khan been a woman and had a man fallen for her in the way Marla did?

I think also that the whole situation was marred by Kirk's 'respect' for Khan in the first place, which was pretty weird overall. I wonder if it was meant to be some kind of parallel for some people's respect of the 'efficiency' of Nazi Germany. I find that somewhat disturbing. When taken with McGivers's betrayal and the respect that the other senior staff members also seemed to have for Khan, it almost makes it seem like there's a little fascist in everyone on the Enterprise.

I can't help but wonder if that's the point of the episode, and that explains McGivers's actions? Double yuck.

 

[Gary7]

You'd think in that wondrously civil society of the Federation, that you'd have a minimal number of nut cases, psychopaths, or delusional misfits. Certainly there were plenty of them outside the ranks of Star Fleet. But there were a few in uniform. Don't forget Captain Tracey and his mad pursuit for the fountain of youth. Or Matt Decker, crazed to the point of serious judgement loss, to think another starship could take the Doomsday Machine.

Maybe McGivers was lonely... longing for the romance of the past. It's easy to get caught up in that. I've met a number of people who, if given the choice, would love to live in an earlier time. Let's say McGivers is silently one of those people. Then Khan comes along, and he's like her ultimate dream. The whole experience leaves her seriously seduced by Khan. She rationalizes her attraction for him and expects that he won't harm anyone.

In the end, she does rescue Kirk... so there is some sense of loyalty still there. But by then it is too late. Either be court martialed or join Khan. The choice was pretty clear for her.

In retrospect, I think the actress could have done a better job with the role. Outside of the lines for her character, she projected herself a little too soft for an officer, more like a civil servant as Praetor suggests. I think someone with a little better talent might have pulled off a more believable character.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I wonder what it would have been like for the plot had Khan been a woman and had a man fallen for her in the way Marla did?

That's what I'm thinking about, as I conclude this mostly seems implausible because of the gender roles in the situation. The way I see it, she was bascially seduced into betrayal, which seems a little odd since we're used to seeing women seducing men into immoral decisions, but this is really just the same thing. Consider this...if the roles had been reversed and it had been a beautiful woman seducing one of the crew members to betray the Enterprise, do you think it would have seemed as far-fetched? I don't.

 

[Praetor]

You'd think in that wondrously civil society of the Federation, that you'd have a minimal number of nut cases, psychopaths, or delusional misfits. Certainly there were plenty of them outside the ranks of Star Fleet. But there were a few in uniform. Don't forget Captain Tracey and his mad pursuit for the fountain of youth. Or Matt Decker, crazed to the point of serious judgement loss, to think another starship could take the Doomsday Machine.

Maybe McGivers was lonely... longing for the romance of the past. It's easy to get caught up in that. I've met a number of people who, if given the choice, would love to live in an earlier time. Let's say McGivers is silently one of those people. Then Khan comes along, and he's like her ultimate dream. The whole experience leaves her seriously seduced by Khan. She rationalizes her attraction for him and expects that he won't harm anyone.

In the end, she does rescue Kirk... so there is some sense of loyalty still there. But by then it is too late. Either be court martialed or join Khan. The choice was pretty clear for her.

In retrospect, I think the actress could have done a better job with the role. Outside of the lines for her character, she projected herself a little too soft for an officer, more like a civil servant as Praetor suggests. I think someone with a little better talent might have pulled off a more believable character.

I think you left out Garth ("That's Lord Garth!") of Izar. Good point! Starfleet does seem to have an excess of plot-motivated wackos roaming the stars to be so highly civilized. So in that regard, a bored ship's historian who lives in her head too much seems plausible.

You also make a point about the actress. I remember reading the reason McGivers was killed off-screen for TWoK was partially because she had MS by then. I wonder if given the opportunity she'd have handled her second showing as well as Montalban? Has anyone seen the actress (Madlyn Rhue) in anything else?

 

[Myasishchev]

Khan has genetically engineered pheromones for which the young McGivers was no match.

But yeah, it was pretty implausible. Heck, handing Khan Ceti Alpha VI was pretty implausible, but I can sympathize with Khan's motives, and maybe Kirk did too.

 

[JustKate]

Yes yes yes yes yes!

(I'll bet that answer surprises you, Praetor. Or not. )

Yeah, since you planted the notion in my head to start with!

Who? Little ol' me?

I think also that the whole situation was marred by Kirk's 'respect' for Khan in the first place, which was pretty weird overall. I wonder if it was meant to be some kind of parallel for some people's respect of the 'efficiency' of Nazi Germany. I find that somewhat disturbing. When taken with McGivers's betrayal and the respect that the other senior staff members also seemed to have for Khan, it almost makes it seem like there's a little fascist in everyone on the Enterprise.

I can't help but wonder if that's the point of the episode, and that explains McGivers's actions? Double yuck.

I wonder if instead of a sneaking admiration of Nazi Germany (multi-yuck!), it is rather a misplaced respect for the American Indian ethic? I say misplaced because Khan did not live up to any of that as far as I could/can see, but he was supposed to be descended from some unspecified North American tribe, right? So maybe it's that instead.

I mean, this was the late 1960s, after all, when everybody started thinking that maybe instead of being a fallen hero, Custer was actually an arrogant idiot who deserved what he got - only problem is he took a lot of other men with him to the grave. I just looked it up, and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee came out just a year or two after TOS ended. Presumably that book didn't just come right out of nowhere.

The "misfit" thing could have worked, Gary7 - maybe you're right that a better actress could have pulled it off. Or just a better build-up, even. You're definitely right that there are lots of people who long to live in a different time and place. I know people who'd move to Middle Earth like a shot.

 

[JustKate]

That's what I'm thinking about, as I conclude this mostly seems implausible because of the gender roles in the situation. The way I see it, she was bascially seduced into betrayal, which seems a little odd since we're used to seeing women seducing men into immoral decisions, but this is really just the same thing. Consider this...if the roles had been reversed and it had been a beautiful woman seducing one of the crew members to betray the Enterprise, do you think it would have seemed as far-fetched? I don't.

I have to respectfully disagree, Too Much. You might very well be right regarding other shows and movies of the era, but I can't imagine TOS allowing one of its near-perfect males to betray the federation for sex. Insanity, yes, misplaced fixation on an ideal, sure, but just due to the wiles of a woman? Nah. Can you think of an example that's escaping me?

 

[Gary7]

Interesting. I didn't know that Madlyn Rhue was considered for a reprisal of the role. It's sad to learn that it was due to MS... I've no doubt that if she wasn't suffering from a health condition, she might have had sufficient talent to pull off the small part (more years of acting experience).

Btw, I didn't mention Garth because he was REALLY wacko... Tracey and Decker were just delusional from a situation at hand, but otherwise normal people.


McGiver's character does raise an interesting thought, though. As of the 24th century, the human being appears to have evolved enough to live more peacefully in an enormously large interconnected society. Yet, there would have to be some who would bore of it and seek alternative lifestyles. People craving the use of old technology. Maybe McGiver's character was one of them... not enough time in the script to build up the back story, as Kate suggests. But nevertheless, yearning to have been a part of the "glorious past" and then suddenly has the chance to be romantically involved with a man from that time. Irresistible.

 

[MANT!]

perhaps the following would help...
http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/mcgivers.htm

 

[Praetor]

I think also that the whole situation was marred by Kirk's 'respect' for Khan in the first place, which was pretty weird overall. I wonder if it was meant to be some kind of parallel for some people's respect of the 'efficiency' of Nazi Germany. I find that somewhat disturbing. When taken with McGivers's betrayal and the respect that the other senior staff members also seemed to have for Khan, it almost makes it seem like there's a little fascist in everyone on the Enterprise.

I can't help but wonder if that's the point of the episode, and that explains McGivers's actions? Double yuck.

I wonder if instead of a sneaking admiration of Nazi Germany (multi-yuck!), it is rather a misplaced respect for the American Indian ethic? I say misplaced because Khan did not live up to any of that as far as I could/can see, but he was supposed to be descended from some unspecified North American tribe, right? So maybe it's that instead.

Apparently Khan was actually supposed to be a Sikh Indian, but that theory could still work if Kirk had admiration for their society. I think I wast thinking Nazi Germany (triple-yuck) because they had been such proponents of eugenics and that's what Khan and his kind were supposed to originally be the 'ultimate' product of - selective breeding.

Sikh Indians, or Native Americans for that matter, are much less yucky.

 

[Myasishchev]

I have to respectfully disagree, Too Much. You might very well be right regarding other shows and movies of the era, but I can't imagine TOS allowing one of its near-perfect males to betray the federation for sex. Insanity, yes, misplaced fixation on an ideal, sure, but just due to the wiles of a woman? Nah. Can you think of an example that's escaping me?

Spock. Amok Time.

 

[JustKate]

^ ^ Sikh? Really? ::snort::snicker:: Can you spell "miscasting"?

If I remember correctly, and it's been a long time since I watched this episode since I loathe it so, weren't there representatives of various ethnicities on the ship with Khan? It was like a Noah's Ark for perfect physical specimens of humanity. So I really don't think there's any particular tie-in to the Nazis, but you could be perceiving something that I missed. It happens.

 

[JustKate]

Spock. Amok Time.

Yeah, but that's not quite the same thing since he only pretended to be a traitor and turned out to be his usual noble self in the end.

 

[Praetor]

^ ^ Sikh? Really? ::snort::snicker:: Can you spell "miscasting"?

If I remember correctly, and it's been a long time since I watched this episode since I loathe it so, weren't there representatives of various ethnicities on the ship with Khan? It was like a Noah's Ark for perfect physical specimens of humanity. So I really don't think there's any particular tie-in to the Nazis, but you could be perceiving something that I missed. It happens.

Yeaaah... Montalban was a good actor but his type was a bit off. And you're right about the ship being a mishmash of various superfolk.

I think I'm getting Nazi Germany from the eugenics combined with their fascist rule of the planet. I don't think there's a direct connection otherwise.

 

[Myasishchev]

Spock. Amok Time.

Yeah, but that's not quite the same thing since he only pretended to be a traitor and turned out to be his usual noble self in the end.

You're thinking of Enterprise Incident. In Amok Time, Spock countermands Kirk's and Starfleet's orders so he can go to Vulcan and get laid. Kirk is pissed, but understands. Then Spock kills him. And he never does get laid, which is weird.

 

[JustKate]

^ ::yet more snorting and snickering:: Oops, sorry about my error. (Read what people actually write, Kate, instead of what you think they mean...)

Yes, of course, but...it's still not betrayal - it's not sacrificing his crew. And it's a kind of insanity, really. So Spock retains his usual nobility. And he never does get laid. Huh.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I have to respectfully disagree, Too Much. You might very well be right regarding other shows and movies of the era, but I can't imagine TOS allowing one of its near-perfect males to betray the federation for sex. Insanity, yes, misplaced fixation on an ideal, sure, but just due to the wiles of a woman? Nah. Can you think of an example that's escaping me?

Spock. Amok Time.

Simulatenously suppoting and contradicting your point are many examples of men on "Star Trek" choosing their attraction to a woman over their loyalty to the federation. What supports your point is the fact this tends to happen due to circumstances like mind control, amnesia, illness, etc. unlike Mcgivers, who is simply motivated by simple physical/intellectual attraction. At the same, however, regardless of the reason, the men do technically prove to be less than "near-perfect" as you called them, and capable of being seduced into abandoning Starfleet, even if only when somewhat removed from themselves. For example, Kirk and McCoy wanting to leave Starfleet to stay with women in "The Paradise Syndrome" and "For the World is Hollow..." and Spock wanting to in both "All Our Yesterdays" and "This Side of Paradise".

 

[JustKate]

^ Just one small disclaimer: Note that I said "near" perfect. The good Lord knows Kirk ain't even close to perfect...