Maquis and the Dominion War

[neozeks]

We know the Dominion destroyed the Maquis within days of absorbing Cardassia. But were they all killed? Some obviously survived in Federation prisons. What do you think happened to them during and after the war? Given Starfleet's manpower shortage and the specialised skills of the Maquis against the Cardassians I think it's likely many received amnesty under the condition they join the war effort. Excluding the worst offenders, like Eddington.

What happened to the DMZ? Given that it was the border, I assume it saw lots of fighting. Possibly was also occupied by the Dominion. Did they destroy the Federation colonies and slaughter the colonists? I'm sure the Dominion wouldn't have a problem doing something like that. What of the Cardassian colonies? The Feds wouldn't destroy them but like all of Cardassia, they're probably severely damaged.

What after the war? The victorious Federation can dictate the terms to the Cardassians. Should it allow resettlement by the surviving colonists/Maquis? Should the border change? Or would that just spark another conflict? Was the entire Maquis struggle completely in vain?

So many fascinating questions. I really wish DS9 had one more season. Did Voyager follow up on any of this?
Did the novel continuity clear anything of this up (if yes, please don't spoil it - much)?

 

[G2309]

I know the dominion war books state that some factions returned to the federation but it doesn't elaborate what happened to them. The cardassian colonies were probably the first to be taken in the war as the dominion expanded its territory.

 

[indolover]

Maybe the Federation/Cardassian Treaty was made null and void when Cardassia joined the Dominion.

I can imagine Starfleet giving pardons and field commissions to the Maquis, especially those who were former Starfleet officers.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Terrorists do not deserve amnesty--however, knowing the Federation's lax policies, I too suspect they would indeed have been granted it.

(That said, I also think the Federation should never, EVER have made that treaty with those terms.)

 

[neozeks]

Terrorists do not deserve amnesty

What about Kira? Wasn't she a terrorist?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Frankly, I think that Kira's unrepentant attitude towards civilian casualties in her attacks was disgusting, and I would have liked to have seen her brought much lower as a result of that attitude. If you do not distinguish between legitimate military targets and civilians, then my opinion is that you should have to answer for that. Now, Kira would've had me believing that it was an accident until she basically told Silaran Prin that she didn't give a shit what had happened to him. Even saying she was sorry he was in the way would've been enough to demonstrate SOME sort of remorse, but no. (Obviously in that episode we have to consider the fact that a child would've come to harm, regardless of whether Prin claimed there would be no harm...so it would've had to happen at some other time.)

 

[neozeks]

Oh, I agree that the attitude in 'The Darkness and the Light' was appaling, there is no way around that. I really would have liked that episode much more if Kira herself was in the end shocked by what she had said (and discovered about herself).

But even if she had repented, it wouldn't have changed what she had done in the Resistance. She would have still been a terrorist. Do you think Kira should have gone to prison for her actions? I personally don't think it's as black and white as that.

Anyway, are the Maquis really terrorist? Or at least, are all of them terrorists? Most of their attacks were aimed at military targets. Yes, some were targeted at civilians, but do we have proof that it was a general Maquis policy? Or that they even had a general policy?

 

[Timo]

Wouldn't the question of amnesty be a little moot in the UFP context? After all, people who don't get amnesty get cured. There's no punishment involved as far as we know, only forced treatment which amounts to a brief incarceration-like period of time spent outside the society.

And the treatments seem to work, and seem to be humane, and don't seem to limit people much. Harry Mudd was supposedly cured of the disease of using counterfeit money and the disease of operating a ship without a master's license - he never did those again to our knowledge. But that didn't turn him into a spineless introvert or anything - he was able to go on with his life and get other diseases. Ditto, Kasidy Yates never smuggled for the good cause again, but was none the worse for it. I trust Garak's attempted crime in "Broken Link" was nicely cured as well.

The Feds could well cure the Maquis of specific diseases such as the urge to sabotage Starfleet hardware or kill thy spoonheaded neighbor, without taking away their patriotic frontier spirit or anything. They could even do that during the war and return the fighters to the fronts, seeing how the war wasn't going to end within the six-month period these treatments almost invariably seem to take...

The issue of repenting seems moot, too, in this context. The worst mass murderers are returned to the society, cured, and the society is supposed to accept that (or get cured in turn). There's no room for repenting there; it's not a matter of choice.

It won't work that way for cultures that practice different types of crime control, of course. But any UFP citizen would probably have been taught to think in a certain way about crime. That's probably a big step in the process of joining the UFP...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DevilEyes]

^ All this talk about "curing" criminals makes me wonder if the Federation is applying some horrible Clockwork Orange-like "behavior therapies'.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The cardassians and the jem'hadar killed more than maquis; they killed EVERY FEDERATION CITIZEN living in the demilitarised zone they could get their hands on, destroyed entire colonies.
You don't really think every man, woman and child living in those colonies was a maquis, yes?

And the federation - who, for seasons, hunted maquis as terrorists, each time it did that confirming that it viewed them (and the other colonists) as federation citizens who must obey federation law (and treaties), abandoned those same citizens when they were being exterminated by the hundreds of thousands.
Apparently, in the federation's view, citizens only have obligations (to obey the state's law, in this case) and no rights (to be protected by this same state, for example). DISGUSTINGLY HYPOCRITICAL. Whatever impetus member planets had in remaining parts of the federation should have evaporated in large part after these events.

 

[Hofner]

^ All this talk about "curing" criminals makes me wonder if the Federation is applying some horrible Clockwork Orange-like "behavior therapies'.

On the other hand, I heard the Federation has a 100% cure rate. Repeat offenders are cured every single time they get caught.

Robert

 

[neozeks]

Wouldn't the question of amnesty be a little moot in the UFP context? After all, people who don't get amnesty get cured. There's no punishment involved as far as we know, only forced treatment which amounts to a brief incarceration-like period of time spent outside the society.

This 'crime is a disease' idea is a TOS thing, right? I think it got dropped by the time of TNG. Thankfully, if you ask me, cause it's quite simplistic and naive. Rehabilitation, resocialization and humanization of prisons are fine, but this is taking it too far.

The cardassians and the jem'hadar killed more than maquis; they killed EVERY FEDERATION CITIZEN living in the demilitarised zone they could get their hands on, destroyed entire colonies.
You don't really think every man, woman and child living in those colonies was a maquis, yes?

And the federation - who, for seasons, hunted maquis as terrorists, each time it did that confirming that it viewed them (and the other colonists) as federation citizens who must obey federation law (and treaties), abandoned those same citizens when they were being exterminated by the hundreds of thousands.
Apparently, in the federation's view, citizens only have obligations (to obey the state's law, in this case) and no rights (to be protected by this same state, for example). DISGUSTINGLY HYPOCRITICAL. Whatever impetus member planets had in remaining parts of the federation should have evaporated in large part after these events.

How do you know the Federation didn't try to evacuate as many non-Maquis colonists in it's reach as possible? I'm not sure what else could they have done. They sure as hell weren't ready for full-scale war at that point.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The cardassians and the jem'hadar killed more than maquis; they killed EVERY FEDERATION CITIZEN living in the demilitarised zone they could get their hands on, destroyed entire colonies.
You don't really think every man, woman and child living in those colonies was a maquis, yes?

And the federation - who, for seasons, hunted maquis as terrorists, each time it did that confirming that it viewed them (and the other colonists) as federation citizens who must obey federation law (and treaties), abandoned those same citizens when they were being exterminated by the hundreds of thousands.
Apparently, in the federation's view, citizens only have obligations (to obey the state's law, in this case) and no rights (to be protected by this same state, for example). DISGUSTINGLY HYPOCRITICAL. Whatever impetus member planets had in remaining parts of the federation should have evaporated in large part after these events.

How do you know the Federation didn't try to evacuate as many non-Maquis colonists in it's reach as possible? I'm not sure what else could they have done. They sure as hell weren't ready for full-scale war at that point.

I know the federation didn't even try to help the colonists from DS9: Blaze of glory.
In this episode it is established that the federation let its citizens be slaughtered without even trying to help - ironically, even the klingons helped more, by giving the maquis cloaking devices.


And the federation was FAR from being in a hopeless condition, from having no options:
The federation may not have been fully mobilised, but the cardassians/dominion were not ready to start the war, either (they were in a much stronger position at the end of the season when they did start the war).

Indeed, considering the state the cardassians were in - as opposed to the federation's condition - and the dominion convoys the cardassans/dominion received from that point until the end of the season -, the federation would have been better off protecting its citizens - and if this started the war, guess what: if protecting your citizens from genocide can only be achieved through war, then war is the correct course of action.
The federation chose to let its citizens get slaughtered - hundreds of thousands of them -, PROVING that it views them as utterly expendable in the name of political expediency, of appeasement or fear.

Entering the federation is "gaining" a slave master who claims to care about you, but lets you to die when he has to put actions behind his hollow words.
As I said: Whatever impetus member planets had in remaining parts of the federation should have evaporated in large part after these events.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh, I agree that the attitude in 'The Darkness and the Light' was appaling, there is no way around that. I really would have liked that episode much more if Kira herself was in the end shocked by what she had said (and discovered about herself).

But even if she had repented, it wouldn't have changed what she had done in the Resistance. She would have still been a terrorist. Do you think Kira should have gone to prison for her actions? I personally don't think it's as black and white as that.

My question would be how many more actions against civilians she was involved in. If that was the one incident, then I would require restitution. I mean, it seems to me Prin could not afford the surgery he needed (given that Marritza pulled it off with ease, I suspect a socioeconomic class difference). Restitution would be appropriate to redress that...though I would also say Prin would need to be committed to a mental treatment facility, possibly for life depending on how bad it was.

If she was indiscriminate, and truly didn't give a shit about killing civilians, then no, she did not deserve the uniform she wore, and should have been imprisoned.

(Now, where I think the show had an opportunity to bring home Kira's shock at her own attitudes even more than they did was "Ties of Blood and Water." If, in the end, she had expressed her horror at the mean things she said to Tekeny, I think his death and the way she felt about him as her "father" would have also been an opportune moment to realize just what her racism towards Cardassians had cost her, both towards Prin and towards a man that I daresay in the familial sense, she loved.)

Anyway, are the Maquis really terrorist? Or at least, are all of them terrorists? Most of their attacks were aimed at military targets. Yes, some were targeted at civilians, but do we have proof that it was a general Maquis policy? Or that they even had a general policy?

Even the ones who are not terrorists are, if Starfleet officers, traitors. But if the Maquis were not stopping or condemning attacks on civilian targets, they are responsible by inaction as well as by action.

 

[neozeks]

I know the federation didn't even try to help the colonists from DS9: Blaze of glory.
In this episode it is established that the federation let its citizens be slaughtered without even trying to help - ironically, even the klingons helped more, by giving the maquis cloaking devices.

Well, actually, the only thing this episode establishes is that the Maquis were slaughtered. As you said, not every colonist in the DMZ was a Maquis. Now, as I said, I do believe the Dominion wasn't particularly discriminate in it's attack. But nowhere does this episode preclude the possibility that Starfleet tried to evacuate the colonists that were willing to go. The Maquis, I'd wager, would never be willing to go. Not that Starfleet has any obligation to help the Maquis - they themselves wanted to have nothing with the Federation.

And the federation was FAR from being in a hopeless condition, from having no options:
The federation may not have been fully mobilised, but the cardassians/dominion were not ready to start the war, either (they were in a much stronger position at the end of the season when they did start the war).

I have the opposite impression. The Feds waited so long to mine the wormhole because they weren't ready for war untill the time of 'Call to Arms'. Remember, just the first wave of Dominion ships was enough to drive the Klingons entirely out of Cardassia. And Federation shields were supposed to be generally useless against the Dominion at this point in time.

if protecting your citizens from genocide can only be achieved through war, then war is the correct course of action.

Not if entering a war to prevent the genocide ended with you losing the war and thus not only failing to stop the genocide but also causing multiple times more deaths. It's cruel but sometimes you have to make the hard choice.

If she was indiscriminate, and truly didn't give a shit about killing civilians, then no, she did not deserve the uniform she wore, and should have been imprisoned.

No arguments from me there. I'm just trying to figure where exactly do you draw the line?

Even the ones who are not terrorists are, if Starfleet officers, traitors. But if the Maquis were not stopping or condemning attacks on civilian targets, they are responsible by inaction as well as by action.

Does that make every member of the Bajoran Resistance responsible as well?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

If she was indiscriminate, and truly didn't give a shit about killing civilians, then no, she did not deserve the uniform she wore, and should have been imprisoned.

No arguments from me there. I'm just trying to figure where exactly do you draw the line?

Proper guerilla warfare is a) military targets only b) attempting to avoid civilians and c) regretting those casualties rather than defending them. Evidence suggests Kira may not have done b), and definitely didn't do c).

Even the ones who are not terrorists are, if Starfleet officers, traitors. But if the Maquis were not stopping or condemning attacks on civilian targets, they are responsible by inaction as well as by action.

Does that make every member of the Bajoran Resistance responsible as well?

We know the Bajoran Resistance was decentralized. We do not know that of the Maquis. In the case of the Resistance, I would say each cell has to be evaluated on its actions, and if they were indiscriminate and unrepentant, then they are responsible.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

neozeks

DS9: 'Blaze of glory' established that the cardasssains/jem'hadar DESTROYED every federation colony in the demilitarised zone - killed every colonist who lived there.
It also established that the federation did NOTHING whatsoever to help these colonists - because it could provoke the dominion. Sisko was shoked that the klingons actually helped them, by giving them cloaking devices.

As far as on-screen events go, there were no survivors. In trek lit, a few colonists survived through their efforts - with no assistance from the federation.


About the geopolotical situation in season 5:

At the point of 'blaze of glory':
Only a few dominion convoys came through the wormhole. The cardassian infrastructure was still in shambles.

The federation, on the other hand, was in good shape.

You actually think that, by this point, the dominion had the strategical advantage?


From 'blaze of glory' to season 5's end:
More dominion convoys (THOSANDS OF DOMINION SHIPS) came through the wormhole.
The dominion reconstructed the cardassian infrastructure.
The dominion closed non-agression treaties with half the alpha/beta quadrants.

The federation...increased ship production?

You truly beleive the federation gained more from this delay than the dominion?


The federation letting its citizens die was a betrayal of all the ideals it claimed to personify.
It was also the worst kind of appeasement. Strategically idiotic. The federation feared the obviously agressive dominion and didn't stand up to him (blocking the wormhole) until the dominion was openly destroying federation ships on the border - as in the dominion was ready for war (last two episodes of season 5).


Were I a federation citizen living on Trill - or any other non-central world - I would no longer trust the federation to protect me when the going gets tough.
On the other hand, I would very much expect the federation to hunt me down like an animal when it's politically convenient, simply because I'm protecting my home, my values. And of course, in the federation's opinion, this is justified, because it asked me to renounce my home and values and I had the audacity to refuse.

The federation's actions speak louder than its propaganda.

 

[neozeks]

DS9: 'Blaze of glory' established that the cardasssains/jem'hadar DESTROYED every federation colony in the demilitarised zone - killed every colonist who lived there.
It also established that the federation did NOTHING whatsoever to help these colonists - because it could provoke the dominion. Sisko was shoked that the klingons actually helped them, by giving them cloaking devices.

Can you give me exact lines from the episode? Cause all I find are just mentions of the Maquis being slaughtered. Nothing precludes the posibility of other colonists escaping or the posibility that Starfleet helped them evacuate. Also, I don't think the colonies on the Federation side of the DMZ were attacked, at least not until open war began.

It also established that the federation did NOTHING whatsoever to help these colonists - because it could provoke the dominion. Sisko was shoked that the klingons actually helped them, by giving them cloaking devices.

Actually, Sisko wasn't surprised at all. It was only natural for the Klingons, fighting a war with the Cardassians, to help the Maquis. And now you're the one not making a distinction between the Maquis and the colonists.

About the geopolotical situation in season 5:

You're forgeting the shields thing. Weyoun was very surprised that DS9's shields worked against the Dominion fleet in 'Call to Arms', meaning they hadn't worked before.

Also, if the Doms/Cardies were so weak at the start, why did Klingons completely withdraw from Cardassian space? I'm sure they had a sizable fleet there.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

neozeks

About the shields:
Defiant, in seasons 2-5, proved more than a match for dominion ships on more than one occasion. At one time, it destroyed 5 jem'hadar bugs.
Its shields provided protection - not as good as against klingon weapons, for example, but good enough to face the dominion ships and win.

Now - from 'Blaze of glory' to season 5's end, the federation found a way to improve its shields against dominion weapons. An advantage, but considering Defiant's previous successes, not a decisive one.

The dominion tripled the "sizable fleet" it had in the alpha quadrant during 'Blaze of glory' - at the very least -, got up and running the infrastructure that would allow it to replace lost ships and jem'hadar and signed multiple non-agression treaties.

The dominion still had more to gain - a lot more.

If the federation/klingons couldn't have handled the dominion as it was during DS9: 'Blaze of glory', then the federation/klingons would have been effortlessly squashed by the dominion as it was during DS9: 'Call to arms'.

About 'Blaze of glory':
Off the top of my head, the conversations between Sisko and Martok or between Sisko and Eddington confirm that ALL federation colonies from the ENTIRE demilitarised zone were exterminated.
They also confirm that the federation didn't militarily protect the colonists.

They don't say a word about any eventual help in evacuating the federation supposedly provided - if said help existed, it was minimal. Indeed, said conversations confirmed that the vast majority, if not all the colonists, were executed by the cardassians/dominion.
The only help for the colonists mentioned is the klingons giving the colonists cloaking devices.

 

[neozeks]

neozeks

About the shields:
Defiant, in seasons 2-5, proved more than a match for dominion ships on more than one occasion. At one time, it destroyed 5 jem'hadar bugs.
Its shields provided protection - not as good as against klingon weapons, for example, but good enough to face the dominion ships and win.

Actually, prior to the war, the Defiant confronted Dominion ships in battle only three times. Once in 'The Search', where it was completely defeated. Another time in 'Starship Down', where it was again badly damaged and managed to win only thanks to cunning and tricks. And in 'The Die is Cast' where I'll give you it did some heavy damage to the Jems. But remember, this is the Defiant we're talking about. The battle was short, the Doms were busy with the Cardassian/Romulan fleet, the ship had a cloaking device. Seems to me it won more on the strength of it's weapons and maneueverability. And those are areas in which the Defiant is superior to your average Starfleet vessel.
I wouldn't dismiss this just that easily, at least Weyoun seemed to think it was important.

And again, why were the Klingons immediately forced to withdraw after that Dominion fleet reached Cardassia? Surely Klingons aren't cowards?

About 'Blaze of glory':
Off the top of my head, the conversations between Sisko and Martok or between Sisko and Eddington...

Well, here are the lines in question:

SISKO (surprised) This is a Maquis code.

MARTOK I was as surprised as you. I thought the Maquis had been wiped out by Cardassia and their Dominion allies. But it would appear I was mistaken.

SISKO Did you detect any missiles?

MARTOK No. But that proves nothing. (a reluctant admission) A few months ago, the Klingon high council decided to aid the Maquis in their fight against Cardassia. We provided them with thirty Class- Four cloaking devices. It was our understanding that they would use them on their ships.

SISKO (trying to stay calm) If those missiles hit Cardassia it could start a war. Billions of people could be killed.

EDDINGTON If you expect me to shed a tear, you're going to be disappointed. I used up all my tears when the Dominion slaughtered the Maquis. I sat here in this cell for three days and listened to the reports as they came in. In those three days, everyone and everything I cared about was wiped out.

So, all we know is the Maquis were slaughtered. Other colonists may have survived or escaped. And again, the Klingons helped the Maquis. The Federation wouldn't do that, but it doesn't mean it didn't try to help the colonists/colonies that didn't join the Maquis. In fact, both Eddington in this episode and Dukat in 'By Inferno's Light' talk specifically about 'Maquis colonies'. Yeah, Dukat probably meant 'all the Federation colonies' but it can also be interpreted as meaning that there are colonies that are not Maquis.