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Man McCoy has the worst comeback ever in TUC.

enterprisecvn65

Captain
Captain
So at the diplomatic dinner on the Enterprise with the Klingons things start to get chippy.

Eventually it leads to Kerla saying how they know all these events are leading to the eventual extinction of the Klingon race to which McCoy responds "that's not true". Kerla challenges him by asking "No?"

Now McCoy, a man who is very emotional and tempermental and has gotten in countless arguments with people like Spock over much lesser issues, summons all of his emotion and rage and comes back with this awesome response

"No"

Wow he sure showed Kerla who was boss.
 
^I don't think we can put that on McCoy or Kelley; that line was always struck me as odd--as if there were supposed to be more after McCoy's denial that was ultimately edited from the final version of the script. Perhaps in an earlier draft of TUC, McCoy may have said something like this:

"That's not true."

"No?"

"No. Your culture will definitely change, but it won't be swept away. That's why we're having this peace summit, so we can figure out a way to help your government without either starting a war or unwittingly forcing your culture to subvert to our own."

--Sran
 
In the original script, he has no comeback at all. That scene was really hacked up in the editing process:

43 INT. OFFICERS' MESS, ENTERPRISE

A WINDOW IRISES OPEN REVEALING the stars gliding by.

A HAND POURS DEEP BLUE ROMULAN ALE into Gorkon's
crystal goblet. Dinner well underway. Principles from
both parties are at table. STEWARDS keep food and
drink in motion.

GORKON
I give you a toast: the
undiscovered country -
(off their looks)
the future.

All drink ROMULAN ALE, echoing "the undiscovered
country." The KLINGONS eat with their fingers,
scorning utensils.

SPOCK
HAMLET, act three, scene one.

GORKON
You have never experienced
Shakespeare until you have read
him in the original Klingon.

Chang turns to Kirk with a malicious twinkle.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the
question" which preoccupies our
people, Captain Kirk. We need
BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale
was illegal.

It takes Kirk a moment to regain his composure.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being
a thousand light years from
Federation headquarters.

Silence.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of
the architects of our future.

All drink. As Romulan ale flows throughout the scene,
tongues get looser. Gorkon WATCHES.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something
of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all
your work behind the scenes, and
despite the cordiality at this
mess, I do not sense an acceptance
of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am.
We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome
ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps
at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or
two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to
give up Starfleet?

Kirk stares.

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that
Starfleet's mission has always
been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my
first officer. Starfleet has
always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner
is off the record: in space all
warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that
your democratic system gives you
a moral prerogative to force other
cultures to conform to your
politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of
Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on
others. We do believe that every
planet has a sovereign claim to
human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is
racist. The Federation is
basically a "homo sapiens" only
club...

SPOCK reacts to this. Chang is amused.

CHANG
Present company excepted, to be
sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your
mouth - ! I haven't served 30
years in the engine room of a
starship to be accused of gunboat
diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is
leading: the annihilation of our
culture. Klingons will replace
those on the lowest rung of the
Federation employment ladder,
taking menial jobs and performing
them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to
the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of
natural phenomena in the name of
"exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse?
Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians
to muck it up and leave us
defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to
go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.
 
CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on
others. We do believe that every
planet has a sovereign claim to
human rights.

The filmed version is definitely better here -- "inalienable human rights" both makes more sense, being the sort of classic phrase someone would whip out in a debate, and also doubling down on the human-centricness.

This however is better than what's int he film:

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to
the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

I think having Uhura suddenly see the historic parallel and then get snippy with McCoy would've been a great character moment.
 
I never noticed it as a bad moment.

I think there are more awkward moments in the film than that.

DeForest Kelley can be kinda like Patrick Stewart in that he makes even bad dialogue sound like good dialogue.

I didn't like "Only Nixon can go to China" or "That Klingon bitch killed her father" or "I've been dead before" or "I'm as constant as the Northern Star".

There are far more awkward, misplaced lines in the film than "No."
 
^I don't think we can put that on McCoy or Kelley; that line was always struck me as odd--as if there were supposed to be more after McCoy's denial that was ultimately edited from the final version of the script. Perhaps in an earlier draft of TUC, McCoy may have said something like this:

"That's not true."

"No?"

"No. Your culture will definitely change, but it won't be swept away. That's why we're having this peace summit, so we can figure out a way to help your government without either starting a war or unwittingly forcing your culture to subvert to our own."

--Sran

I don't put it on McCoy or Kelley at all, other than the fact he says it on screen.
I put it on the writers for not understanding that McCoy, most out of all TOS characters, was the one who wasn't afraid to mix it up verbally and let his feelings be known.
All pretext of civility was gone at this point in the dinner and McCoy seemed rather agitated with his "That's not true" comment so when Kerla says "No?" You'd think McCoy would say something like "No it isn't true and it's that damn kind of stupid thinking that's going to cause this whole process to fail before it even has a chance.......you purple blooded, inhuman....." And then something would happen to cut him off before he finishes.

THAT'S the Bones I knew growing up Damnit!!!!
 
And when Bones tells Valeris that "... the operation's over," is another idiotic blurt from The Good Doctor. Oh, but it was so ironic, or something that the ship's physician should make such good word useage of the term "operation." Nick Meyer ... you brilliant bastard!
 
And when Bones tells Valeris that "... the operation's over," is another idiotic blurt from The Good Doctor. Oh, but it was so ironic, or something that the ship's physician should make such good word useage of the term "operation." Nick Meyer ... you brilliant bastard!

I actually always liked that line, but never overanalyzed it.

It's another example of Kelley making bad dialogue sound good.
 
In the original script, he has no comeback at all. That scene was really hacked up in the editing process:

43 INT. OFFICERS' MESS, ENTERPRISE

A WINDOW IRISES OPEN REVEALING the stars gliding by.

A HAND POURS DEEP BLUE ROMULAN ALE into Gorkon's
crystal goblet. Dinner well underway. Principles from
both parties are at table. STEWARDS keep food and
drink in motion.

GORKON
I give you a toast: the
undiscovered country -
(off their looks)
the future.

All drink ROMULAN ALE, echoing "the undiscovered
country." The KLINGONS eat with their fingers,
scorning utensils.

SPOCK
HAMLET, act three, scene one.

GORKON
You have never experienced
Shakespeare until you have read
him in the original Klingon.

Chang turns to Kirk with a malicious twinkle.

CHANG
"To be or not to be, that is the
question" which preoccupies our
people, Captain Kirk. We need
BREATHING room...

KIRK
I beg your pardon?

KERLA
Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale
was illegal.

It takes Kirk a moment to regain his composure.

KIRK
One of the advantages of being
a thousand light years from
Federation headquarters.

Silence.

BONES
To you, Chancellor Gorkon: one of
the architects of our future.

All drink. As Romulan ale flows throughout the scene,
tongues get looser. Gorkon WATCHES.

SCOTTY
Perhaps we are looking at something
of that future here.

AZETBUR
Commander Spock, mindful of all
your work behind the scenes, and
despite the cordiality at this
mess, I do not sense an acceptance
of our people throughout your ship.

SPOCK
They're naturally wary, ma'am.
We've been at war a long time.

UHURA
How do both sides overcome
ingrained prejudice?

CHEKOV
Perhaps with a few small steps
at a time. Like this one.

BONES
And perhaps with a large step or
two. Like a peace treaty.

CHANG
Captain Kirk, are you willing to
give up Starfleet?

Kirk stares.

SPOCK
(looks at Kirk)
I believe the Captain feels that
Starfleet's mission has always
been one of peace -

KIRK
(glares)
Far be it for me to dispute my
first officer. Starfleet has
always -

CHANG
Come now, Captain, this dinner
is off the record: in space all
warriors are cold warriors.

SCOTTY
We have never tried to --

KERLA
You hypocritically presume that
your democratic system gives you
a moral prerogative to force other
cultures to conform to your
politics.

BONES
That's not true...!

KERLA
No?

Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.

UHURA
General, are YOU fond of
Shakespeare?

He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh.
Chekov pursues -

CHEKOV
We do NOT impose democracy on
others. We do believe that every
planet has a sovereign claim to
human rights.

AZETBUR
(spits)
"Human rights." Even the name is
racist. The Federation is
basically a "homo sapiens" only
club...

SPOCK reacts to this. Chang is amused.

CHANG
Present company excepted, to be
sure...

UHURA
Well, I suppose we're not perfect -

SCOTTY
(rising)
Don't let them put words in your
mouth - ! I haven't served 30
years in the engine room of a
starship to be accused of gunboat
diplomacy!

KERLA
In any case, we know where this is
leading: the annihilation of our
culture. Klingons will replace
those on the lowest rung of the
Federation employment ladder,
taking menial jobs and performing
them for lower pay...

CHEKOV
That's economics, not racism -

UHURA
But you have to admit it adds up to
the same thing.

BONES
Don't be naive, Commander -!

UHURA
Who you calling naive -?

Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.

CHEKOV
We're explorers not diplomats!

BONES
Starfleet's killed an awful lot of
natural phenomena in the name of
"exploration"...

SCOTTY
We follow orders...

CHEKOV
Since when has THAT been an excuse?
Diplomacy must resolve these -

SCOTTY
Right - leave it to the politicians
to muck it up and leave us
defenseless...!

A COUGH interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon.
The Klingons conceal their amusement.

GORKON
(finally)
Well. I see we have a long way to
go.

Reactions from Kirk and his officers.

A televised special for the 25th anniversary of Star Trek had a whole section previewing TUC. In that documentary, there were behind-the-scenes elements of this scene being shot, and you can see and hear some of this originally scripted dialogue being acted and shot. It is clear that the editing process hacked it to shreds.
 
That 25th Anniversary special is the only reason I knew Chang said, "To be or not to be." in Klingon.
 
If McCoy was supposed to come across as awkward, it's partly that the entire dinner and the mission itself were supposed to be awkward in the first place.
 
I admit McCoy has some annoying moments in this film, but he comes off well here. It's later, on the bridge, and in the torpedo room where he seems to have wisecracks to fill in some kind of line count.

"This is fun."
"Bet you wish you stood in bed."

Only "I'd give real money if he'd shut up" got a genuine laugh out of me.
 
I admit McCoy has some annoying moments in this film, but he comes off well here. It's later, on the bridge, and in the torpedo room where he seems to have wisecracks to fill in some kind of line count.

"This is fun."
"Bet you wish you stood in bed."

The last one would've worked better if they'd kept the rest of the scene -- Spock comes back with, "Why would you wish to stand in bed?" and McCoy starts to retort before realizing Spock was cracking a joke. (At least that's what was in the novelization, but I assume it's from the script.)
 
I don't think it's a bad line at all. McCoy's response is emotional but brief, because (a) he's on his best behaviour for his captain (this is a diplomatic occasion, after all), and (b) he realises the Klingon has a point.
 
If McCoy was supposed to come across as awkward, it's partly that the entire dinner and the mission itself were supposed to be awkward in the first place.

It wasn't just that the dinner was awkward like it was supposed to be, it was awkward in the way it was edited.

So first of all why, other than to introduce the main antagonist, would Gorkon bring Chang along in the first place when it's clear to even the most casual observer that he hates the idea of peace and is probably going to act like a nasty little prick at this function. Does Gorkon have no judge of character at all?

So the dinner starts cordially enough, they toast Gorkon and to peace, make light of the fact they have Romulan Ale on ship and Gorkon toasts to "The Undiscovered Country", Spock catches the reference and then Chang starts his Shakespeare rantings. I know some people think Chang and his Shakespeare was the best thing since sliced bread, but to me it was just self indulgent tripe by Meyer to let the audience know how well read he is. But whatever.

I don't remember the exact order but Chang chides Kirk about giving up starfleet and tells him to be honest and Spock interrupts saying how Kirk believes starfleet's mission has always been one of peace and Kirk responds "Far be it from me to dispute my first oficer". Which I thought was pretty clever because it shows Kirk is really unhappy about this mission and is especially pissed at Spock for having put him in this position.

Then Chang repeats "To be or not to be" and says something about the Klingons needing breathing room to which Kirk says "Earth, Hitler 1938".......

To me this makes no sense and is just another Meyer "Look at how well I know my history" moment. First the whole point of this was not to expand the Klingon Empire so they had more "breathing room" it was to save their asses from almost becoming an extinct species.

Also if Meyer was trying to show how smart he was with this reference, he failed miserably. The concept of Lebensraum, or "living space" not "breathing room" far predated Hitler. It was first referred to in the late 1800's, used often as a reason in WWI and Hitler himself mentioned it countless times in his career, even in Mein Kampf, which came out in 1925. It wasn't like there was ONE time, like JFK saying "Ask not what your country can do for you......" where Hitler said it in 1938 in some iconic speech. It was a concept tossed around in Germany like "Independence" is in the US.

So then Chekov chimes in with his "We believe all species have an inalienable right..." comment. Which was pretty misplaced. It's not like he was totally off topic, but it was like if a group of people are talking about the Super Bowl being played tomorrow and then one person suddenly says "Yeah but the Packers need to get some help with the pass rush for next season".....Well it is about football, but doesn't fit the aspect that was being discussed. It just seemed so random.

Then Azetbur gets all wound up calling the Federation a homo sapiens club only....Uh aren't you the daughter of the man who is risking everything to pull this off, shouldn't you be more supportive of pops instead of insulting the people who are trying to save you?

Then Kerla puts in his extinction of the Klingon race which seems to get Bones wound up. Now if any starfleet character is going to lay it on the line and tell the Klingons they're acting like a bunch of total assholes considering THEY are the ones who came asking the Federation and help to save their race and the Federation is agreeing to help them, it would be Bones, the most passionate and hotheaded character in TOS. Spock sure is hell isn't going to do it, Kirk wants to do it but realizes as host and captain he can't, Chekov is a puss, Uhura maybe could have making some preachy connection between this and slavery, Scotty was half in the bag.....So Bones is the logical choice to stand up for the Federation and say "Now wait a damn minute." Instead he just mutely says "No"....and then Gorkon observes how far they have to go.

Also didn't Gorkon have ANY control over his people? Bringing Chang was asking for trouble. But couldn't he have said to Azetbur and Kerla "This dinner is important, we need this to happen, so put aside your feelings for the next two hours and keep your mouths shut and play nice?" If he did, they sure as hell didn't listen.

It was just a poorly edited scene that made the Klingons seem resentful that the Federation had the balls to actually help save the Klingon Empire. I understand awkward, but generally you don't want to belittle and insult the very people who are trying to help you.
 
^I don't think we can put that on McCoy or Kelley; that line was always struck me as odd--as if there were supposed to be more after McCoy's denial that was ultimately edited from the final version of the script. Perhaps in an earlier draft of TUC, McCoy may have said something like this:

"That's not true."

"No?"

"No. Your culture will definitely change, but it won't be swept away. That's why we're having this peace summit, so we can figure out a way to help your government without either starting a war or unwittingly forcing your culture to subvert to our own."

--Sran

That sounds plausible.
 
I admit McCoy has some annoying moments in this film, but he comes off well here. It's later, on the bridge, and in the torpedo room where he seems to have wisecracks to fill in some kind of line count.

"This is fun."
"Bet you wish you stood in bed."

Only "I'd give real money if he'd shut up" got a genuine laugh out of me.

I've never understood that "stood in bed" comment.
 
I always felt that the dinner scene was very disconnected. A bunch of little lines here and there which don't quite follow, a lot of random sniping.

I think the shooting script there would have been worse.

As far as Kirk's "Earth, Hitler, 1938" business, he's just sniping, too. Chang obviously knows something of Earth history and Kirk is trolling him by basically equating him to one of Earth's most hated villains. The actual historical significance of the phrase and its use in German politics in the decades before 1938 is completely missing the point of why Kirk said it.

--Alex
 
Hmm. IMHO, the way it was shot was much more enjoyable. It's supposed to be extremely awkward and disjointed. And there's no point showing our heroes disagreeing with each other - that would just undermine the whodunnit point, of establishing that everybody (save perhaps for Spock) has a deep-rooted hatred of the Klingons, just with nuances. Much better to show how Kirk and Spock definitely and almost humorously disagree on certain issues yet present a united front against the enemy, being far too inflexible to see any alternative.

Uhura bringing up slavery issues and McCoy playing his opposite? That's daft - "Earth, Hitler, 1938" is way more plausible as a historical reference the characters would be aware of and willing to wield as a rhetoric weapon.

Sounds like Gorkon got exactly what he wanted from this meeting: his hotheads met Kirk's hotheads and had a chance not just to vent off steam, but to get thoroughly embarrassed at how they in fact are the same as their enemy, not even mirrored but merely xeroxed. Kirk would hate to be revealed as a brute like Chang, but Chang would hate to be revealed as the Klingon Kirk, plain and simple...

With that out of the way, the rest of the trip and perhaps the subsequent diplomacy (assuming minions like Chang and Kirk played any role there) would be much easier. The dinner definitely took all of the Nixon bolster out of Kirk! If he tried to use it again, he'd be dismissed as the blowhard he was.

The actual historical significance of the phrase and its use in German politics in the decades before 1938 is completely missing the point of why Kirk said it.
Dunno about that. Germany and Japan in WWII felt they were being strangled by enemies who would decidedly win peace, hence the need for a war of expansion. Klingons, too, could see that peace would be their death... Who knows, perhaps the first steps of the Klingon Empire under the command of Chancellor Chang would have been similar to the German "peaceful" expansion, in order to secure the resources needed to fight Praxis pollution without having to tone down the escalation program.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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