"Loud as a Whisper" question

[Ethros]

I've finally started going through the TNG Season 2 Bluray set I got a while and watched Loud as a Whisper earlier. Great episode and performances, but I just had a quick question about the teaser.

Picard is looking at a holographic star system display in his ready room when Riker walks in, and the scene goes like this-


PICARD Come. Ah, Number One. Look at this. Ever since we left the Lima Sierra system, I have been puzzling over how the third planet could maintain such an orbit, when it is theoretically impossible. But consider this.
RIKER: There's no degeneration.
PICARD: Exactly.
RIKER: Why?
PICARD: Why? I haven't a clue.
RIKER: Perhaps this facsimile lacks the proper mass.
PICARD: Perhaps, but if this is an accurate representation, it could explain what happened in that system.
RIKER: Perhaps.
PICARD: Well, not a matter of great moment, just a knot I had to untie. So, what do you want to see me about?
RIKER: We've arrived at Ramatis Three.
PICARD: Oh well, time to leave.



Mainly I just wondered, what is the point of that scene? It's not a reference to anything in another episode, and although Picard is looking at it again in the final scene of the episode it's never brought up again. And I wonder how much it cost them to make the special effect of the solar system for basically no reason.
Just a curiosity I had

 

[DonIago]

To pad the episode's running time I suspect.

 

[Melakon]

Yes, often TNG teasers were just fluff that had nothing to do with the rest of the episode.

 

[at Quark's]

I suppose just to show that Picard has scholarly interests, and is generally a very cultured and developed 'renaissance' type of man (read: elitist sn*b). You know, in the same way he goes to classical concerts, enjoys trying to understand attempts to prove Fermat's last theorem (still unproven in the 24th century trek universe), reads classical greek after his darmok encounter, is interested in archaeology, and enjoys horseback riding`, fencing, etc, Some (most) of these feats are actually connected to the plot of that ep in a minor way, some aren't .

And yeah, probably to fill another 2 minutes of lacking screentime too. Could it be that this scene wasn't even originally filmed for this ep, but leftover unused footage of another ep, and pulled out when they realised they were a few minutes short ?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It showed Picard is captivated by scientific mysteries and historical mysteries. Nothing snobby about that, or enjoying classical music.

 

[Finn]

About that, surely whatever caused that planet's weird orbit is still there, or it would have been thrown out of its orbit?

 

[Timo]

trying to understand attempts to prove Fermat's last theorem (still unproven in the 24th century trek universe)

Actually, Trek got it right. Fermat's proof hasn't been found in our universe, and almost certainly never will - it just plain doesn't exist, and Fermat was a fool (or a jester of another sort) to claim he had it.

Proof for Fermat's theorem is a completely different matter, and apparently has been established both in the real world and the Trek universe. By the same person, even - there's a DS9 reference to Wiles doing it, and others still trying out other, more elegant versions.

reads classical greek after his darmok encounter

...And knows enough of non-western culture to quote Gilgamesh to Dathon earlier on.

About that, surely whatever caused that planet's weird orbit is still there, or it would have been thrown out of its orbit?

Probably so. But it seems to be unobservable by 24th century means - it's not simply an invisible gravity well at coordinates XYZ, or there would be no riddle other than why it's invisible, and Picard would say so.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

I also felt they wanted to imply an ongoing pursuit of astronomical study. After all, it's easy to forget these people are astronauts, what with all the non-scientific, officerial duties they have, and more personal pursuits in their private lives, which because of how advanced they're supposed to be, we're expected to believe they pursue in addition to their pursuit of space exploration, & understanding

Most everyone there, especially the commanding staff are fundamentally rooted in astronautics, and are thereby still invested in it on an almost unnoticed level. It's the sub-subplot of Star Trek, and even though it's not always interesting enough to be the crux of episode stories, I bet they felt, early on, that they needed or wanted to include that kind of influence into the overall production

I don't really think it was a stock scene thrown in after production. It was more likely a time filler put into the script, that's other purpose was to beef up the space-ish stuff. In later seasons, when they'd do it, Picard would just be reading or playing a flute or something. I actually liked the infusion of some of their astronautic roots into the mix

 

[Timo]

Most everyone there, especially the commanding staff are fundamentally rooted in astronautics

Really? Everybody except Picard seems to me to be just a ship operator, no different from the naval officers of today. And for Picard, astronomy is a hobby.

Starfleet has "science ships" for studying things. And "science departments" aboard other ships for the same, but Picard is just their boss, not an employee.

"Astronaut" as a 20th-21st century profession is an artifact of the limitations of our spaceflight technology: nobody can afford to send two separate people to fly the spacecraft and conduct its mission. But Starfleet can afford just as many extra people as it wants - some see no action for months or years at an end if their specialty never comes up during a mission (Lt. McGivers is an explicit case, but plenty of other specialists pop out of nowhere as needed, too).

The "Loud as a Whisper" scene establishes Picard as an educated man, supposedly as opposed to most of the grunts aboard (many of Kirk's men appeared very unprofessional and ill-educated), while showing Riker isn't far behind. It's elitism of sorts, but it works.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

It showed Picard is captivated by scientific mysteries and historical mysteries. Nothing snobby about that, or enjoying classical music.

I wasn't completely serious there. In fact, I enjoy those things myself. However, I would have liked to see picard doing more 'ordinary' stuff as well, every once in a while.

Actually, Trek got it right. Fermat's proof hasn't been found in our universe, and almost certainly never will - it just plain doesn't exist, and Fermat was a fool (or a jester of another sort) to claim he had it.

mmm.. I never construed that dialoge to mean that they were searching for Fermat's reputed original proof, just any proof. It would make the matter more understandable though, as Wiles' proof seems to require so much knowledge and involvement in mathematics that it seems unlikely that Picard could master that just in his free time.

(in fact, I still think that the writers of that dialogue in our world just meant any proof, as there was no such proof yet when the dialogue was written. But ok, it's a nice way to reconcile it with later developments )

 

[2takesfrakes]

Another interesting bit of trivia: John DeLaney's wife Marnie Mosiman played "Harmony" in the chorus!

 

[Melakon]

John DeLaney

Twenty-seven years, and you can't spell the man's name right!

 

[jimbotron]

Interesting choice to show such graphic deaths resulting from that alien phaser. Aside from Remmick's head exploding, it stands out from the rest of the show (and much of Star Trek).

 

[Nebusj]

trying to understand attempts to prove Fermat's last theorem (still unproven in the 24th century trek universe)

Actually, Trek got it right. Fermat's proof hasn't been found in our universe, and almost certainly never will - it just plain doesn't exist, and Fermat was a fool (or a jester of another sort) to claim he had it.

'Fool' and 'jester' are unfair characterizations of Fermat. He was a skilled mathematician, one of the people making the closest approach to calculus ahead of Leibniz and Newton, a founder of probability theory, and one of the forerunners to group theory.

The worst you can say about him is that, in this case, he was mistaken, which anybody who tries doing mathematics is occasionally. It's just most of us don't have enough noteworthy-enough successes that our mistakes get any notice.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

trying to understand attempts to prove Fermat's last theorem (still unproven in the 24th century trek universe)

Actually, Trek got it right. Fermat's proof hasn't been found in our universe, and almost certainly never will - it just plain doesn't exist, and Fermat was a fool (or a jester of another sort) to claim he had it.

Actually it was proven in 1994.

 

[2takesfrakes]

"Q, Harmony"

John de Lancie and his wife Marnie Mosiman. Don't they make a charming couple? She's probably noting their son Keegan's observation that "... you probably shouldn't have went down to the planet, Mom. Dad never gets killed!"

John's from Philly, too, by the way -- COOL!!! I knew he was a Man of my stripe!

 

[Timo]

Actually it was proven in 1994.

Let me try again.

Fermat's theorem has been proven.

Fermat's proof for Fermat's theorem has not been found, and apparently never will.

The two are completely different things. Fermat either hallucinated he had the proof, or then played a joke on his readers. The proof that has been found would not have been accessible to Fermat, and in fact he would never have understood any of it, that much is certain.

'Fool' and 'jester' are unfair characterizations of Fermat.

Trust me, they were intended as compliments - the scribbling suggesting proof sounds to me like proof of an excellent sense of humor (if nothing else)!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

Actually, Trek got it right. Fermat's proof hasn't been found in our universe, and almost certainly never will - it just plain doesn't exist, and Fermat was a fool (or a jester of another sort) to claim he had it.

Proof for Fermat's theorem is a completely different matter, and apparently has been established both in the real world and the Trek universe. By the same person, even - there's a DS9 reference to Wiles doing it, and others still trying out other, more elegant versions.

A question though. Let's interpret the Picard Fermat scene in your way. Also, let's agree that it would have been (almost) impossible for Fermat to actually have a proof. (I tend to agree with you on that BTW).

But, then, Picard would have known that too if he was interested in that problem and its history. So if we are almost certain, why isn't he ? With his added advantage of 350 years of extra history without apparently finding any proof that plausibly could have been constructed by Fermat, why does he still speak about 'us being unable to unravel a simple knot tied by a 16th century part time mathematician' or something like that, when he should be simply dismissing it as a nigh impossibility?

 

[Mojochi]

Most everyone there, especially the commanding staff are fundamentally rooted in astronautics

Really? Everybody except Picard seems to me to be just a ship operator, no different from the naval officers of today. And for Picard, astronomy is a hobby.

Starfleet has "science ships" for studying things. And "science departments" aboard other ships for the same, but Picard is just their boss, not an employee.

"Astronaut" as a 20th-21st century profession is an artifact of the limitations of our spaceflight technology: nobody can afford to send two separate people to fly the spacecraft and conduct its mission. But Starfleet can afford just as many extra people as it wants - some see no action for months or years at an end if their specialty never comes up during a mission (Lt. McGivers is an explicit case, but plenty of other specialists pop out of nowhere as needed, too).

The "Loud as a Whisper" scene establishes Picard as an educated man, supposedly as opposed to most of the grunts aboard (many of Kirk's men appeared very unprofessional and ill-educated), while showing Riker isn't far behind. It's elitism of sorts, but it works.

Timo Saloniemi

& yet, forgiving that they do keep specialists on board, greensuits, & non-coms, Picard, Riker, Geordi, Worf, Data, & eventually Wesley are all trained pilots of, & educated in the mechanics & operation of spacecraft, with a specialized understanding in astronomy, and trained at operating in spacesuits, space walks & zero gravity. The vast majority of bridge officers on a Federation starship have a fundamental root in what we consider astronautics, & they have whole staffs of people aboard, serving under them, of which it's also true

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I interpret the 'Fitting in the margins' thing to mean that he thought he had a pretty good idea what the proof looked like but never found it. He probably imagined some kind of recursive proof existed, like that it might be possible to prove that if a solution exists for N there must exist a solution for N - 1 in which case you would then only need to prove it for N = 3.

Everybody on the Enterprise (And most aliens) seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of 20th century culture and art but no knowledge at all between the 21st and 23rd century. Must have been a Neoclassical period.

Once in a while it might have been fun to have the crew throw in alien expressions that the audience wouldn't know. "Finding the solution is, as you ferengi say, 'A tube grub in a landslide' ".