• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

LotR: RotK question

Maybe I'm remembering the books wrong, but if I recall correctly, there was no storyline. When they left Rivendell, he just announced he had a new sword that was forged from Isildur's blade. In the movies I really liked how it represented a throne he was to frightened to take.

We do hear that the sword is reforged when the fellowship sets out, but it continues to appear in the later novels and has symbolic value. So, there is a story in the sense that the sword continues to be significant.

That said, I think putting off the reforging of the sword until the RotK makes sense. Aragorn's continued reluctance, much less so. Overall, Strider in the movies remains far too mopey, reluctant and undecided for too long imo. He's been preparing for this his whole life, the character has to come into his own at some point, which never really happens in the movies, or only very belatedly. Part of this is the performance, which simply isn't very good in the later films (I think it's ok for Strider in Fellowship), and part of it the direction, I suppose, though I'm not sure why Jackson would want Aragorn to mumble most of his lines.
 
Because as far as I can tell, Mortensen is a mumbler. I recall having to turn on the subtitles while I was watching The Road. :lol:
 
What they did with Faramir was an improvement upon the original story.

I wouldn't say that, but I think it's an understandable adjustment that works well for the film (a bit like placing the reforging of the sword at the beginning of RotK). In essence, nothing is really changed, it simply takes longer for Faramir to make up his mind and the whole process is linked to movement and action sequences.

The portrayal of Denethor in the film is more problematic because we never get the sense that this is a strong leader and potentially admirable individual, as we do in the books, so his fall loses its meaning. In the book, he shares a lot of qualities with Aragorn and even Gandalf has a lot of respect for him and seems almost intimidated by him at times. In the film, he comes across as contemptible throughout and his death is ridiculous and even comical, rather than tragic.

What's true of Denethor is also true of Gondor as a whole to a large extent. While Gondor has fallen from the height of its glory, it is still very strong: the main point of resistance against Sauron. In the film Gondor comes across as almost pathetically weak at times, both its leader and the rank and file.

Overall, one of the main reasons I would cite the RotK as the weakest film is that it takes what is undoubtedly one of the most exciting and influential climactic passages in all of adventure literature (The Ride of the Rohirrim and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields) and turns it into a circus act. It's quite boring given what's at stake and, when it's not boring, it's more amusing than anything else (Legolas on the Oliphant, Denethor diving to his death, etc.). The battle goes on and on, but there is little actual drama or tension. Maybe a bit at the very beginning of the build-up. Whereas in the novel the actual battle is brief, but the tension and drama surrounding it has (I don't think) ever really been equalled by any of its basically endless line of imitators since.

By comparison, the battle of Helm's Deep is much better in the second film. Some liberties are taken with the book, not all of which I personally think very highly of, but as a movie battle sequence, it works and is very tense and exciting for the most part (with the cuts to the slow-moving scenes with Treebeard being a debatable choice).
 
Last edited:
Also, I believe there are one or two hints in Tolkien's novels that at the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron did indeed possess some kind of physical body, and wasn't just a gigantic eye atop a tower. I don't have the actual phrases though.

Mostly there are references to the lidless eye and his malicious will, which is like a palpaple force, but nothing physical. There are some phrases, though, that talk about Sauron taking form again, or taking shape again, something of that nature, which could probably be interpreted as a reference to a physical body but I think that would be a bit of stretch.

I seem to recall from some of the supporting materials I've read (though I'd probably have to find them to get something more specific) that Sauron could still create a physical form in the Third Age even though the eye is his preferred form, but that he had lost the power to assume a "fair" form that could deceive enemies. The wiki suggests this happened after Sauron caused the downfall of Numenor, and that afterwards he was limited to the form we see in the movies - one that was overtly aggressive and evil.
 
^ Sauron definitely lost his ability to assume a "fair" or not overtly sinister appearance during the fall of Numenor (second age). As I recall, that is because he has to cast aside his original physical form to escape the massive flood that submerges Numenor. This is covered at the end of Silmarillion (though Christopher Tolkien may discuss this in more detail in some of his supporting volumes, many of which I never got around to reading).

Since Elrond's tale of the Last Alliance includes Sauron engaging in combat against Elendil and Gil-Galad, he would certainly appear to regain a physical, albeit sinister form for the rest of the second age.

When he loses the ring, though, that physical form is destroyed, and it's not clear that he is ever able to regain it without the ring. He exists as a spirit until he coalesces to a degree as the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, and then eventually as the "lidless eye" of Barad-dur. There is probably some wiggle room, but I do think that the general gist is that Sauron cannot regain the physical form he had at the end of the second age without the ring. This is part of how the loss of the ring limits his power. But maybe he does have a somewhat crippled or reduced physical form, I don't recall the narrative ever being explicit on that point.

Part of the idea of the history of Middlearth is that evil gradually becomes less and less palpable and more and more internalized, so that, at the end of the third age, all that's left is basically evil as we know it: no "Dark Lord," but only traces of what he represented, such as greed, contempt for the natural world, lust for power, etc. So, Sauron "evaporates" slowly as more and more of his original strength is sacrificed to give himself power over others. The same thing basically happens to Melkor (Morgoth), the original Dark Lord of the Silmarillion, who ends up getting cast out into the Void, but his servants or emissaries remain, Sauron being chief among them.
 
Last edited:
Gollumn tells Frodo and Sam that when he was tortured by Sauron he saw four fingers on his black hand. Ergo, vis a vis, concurrently, Sauron had a physical body. ;)
 
I wouldn't say that, but I think it's an understandable adjustment that works well for the film (a bit like placing the reforging of the sword at the beginning of RotK).
Excellent exemple. As far as I'm concerned, those things were, at best, lost opportunities in the books and work much better in the movies.

The portrayal of Denethor in the film is more problematic because we never get the sense that this is a strong leader and potentially admirable individual, as we do in the books, so his fall loses its meaning.
Is it really necessary that every single character in the book is seen as a potentially admirable individual? I'd rather see them as humans, with their flaws and shortcomings, which is exactly what Denethor is in the movie.
 
Denethor's flaw was that he used to be a good man who let his paranoia and his hubris get the better of him. He thought he could look into Minas Tirith's palantir and control it, but he failed and let Sauron's influence win him over instead. It would have only taken a quick line or two of dialogue to explain it. Instead Denethor just comes off as an obsessive and cowardly fool for no reason.
 
I think perhaps his biggest mistake in the trilogy was to give Aragorn the choice of freeing the ghost army from its bonds, thereby suggesting that if he'd been a minor dick by keeping them around for a few hours, they could have wiped out all of Mordor and everyone could have gotten to bed early, sipping nice hot cups of tea. The ghosts should have dissipated of their own volition after clearing the orcish forces that were on the battlefield at that moment only. :p

I agree the ghost army is the worst thing in the entire trilogy, it seems, to cheapen the Battle at Pelennor Fields and it does appear they could have mopped up the whole of Mordor.

It has been a long time since I read the trilogy, but I don't think in the book they even made it to Pelennor, I think they just helped capture the ships and allow the rangers and Gondor reinforcements to arrive in the nick of time.
 
It has been a long time since I read the trilogy, but I don't think in the book they even made it to Pelennor, I think they just helped capture the ships and allow the rangers and Gondor reinforcements to arrive in the nick of time.
That's right. Aragorn gathered up what forces he could on his march from Erech to Pelargir, where he used the Army of the Dead to capture the Corsair ships, then he released the Army from its curse and he, Gimli, Legolas, and all the Gondorian forces he'd managed to muster sailed up the Anduin to Minas Tirith.
 
I think perhaps his biggest mistake in the trilogy was to give Aragorn the choice of freeing the ghost army from its bonds, thereby suggesting that if he'd been a minor dick by keeping them around for a few hours, they could have wiped out all of Mordor and everyone could have gotten to bed early, sipping nice hot cups of tea. The ghosts should have dissipated of their own volition after clearing the orcish forces that were on the battlefield at that moment only. :p

I agree the ghost army is the worst thing in the entire trilogy, it seems, to cheapen the Battle at Pelennor Fields and it does appear they could have mopped up the whole of Mordor.

It has been a long time since I read the trilogy, but I don't think in the book they even made it to Pelennor, I think they just helped capture the ships and allow the rangers and Gondor reinforcements to arrive in the nick of time.
I don't think that'd have worked in the movie, either. A ghost army that only frightens a few dudes off their ships? That's a giant Meh. Which is why I stand by my suggestion that they clear the battlefield as PJ has them do, then dissipate without asking bleedin' permission.
 
^ I agree that reproducing the original narrative would probably not have worked where the army of the dead is concerned. It's a case where the movie had to simplify one way or another. Nonetheless, the final result leaves much to be desired.

Gollumn tells Frodo and Sam that when he was tortured by Sauron he saw four fingers on his black hand. Ergo, vis a vis, concurrently, Sauron had a physical body. ;)

I do recall that line, which is probably the strongest suggestion of Sauron having a physical form of some kind, but, where Gollum and the ring are concerned, there are many other possibilities. We see on multiple occasions that lust for the ring tends to warp characters' perceptions of reality, so it's possible that what Gollum saw or thought he saw was like a shadow of Sauron's original form. Example: the Nazgul do not have physical bodies, but they sometimes appear to be humanoid, especially to Frodo when he is wearing the ring (he sees like a spectral version of the ringwraiths' original physical form).

Characters closely associated with the Rings of Power tend to see each other differently than other characters, and have the ability to perceive others as they exist in the "spirit-realm," etc.

I'd rather see them as humans, with their flaws and shortcomings, which is exactly what Denethor is in the movie.

Denethor is a tragic figure, which includes deep flaws but also strong admirable qualities (both are necessary to achieve any sort of tragic effect). In the film he is completely corrupt and contemptible, so all sense of grandeur and tragedy is lost.

Similarly, portraying Gondor itself as pathetic and helpless detracts from the epic quality of the attack on Minas Tirith. The drama comes from the fact that this impregnable fortress that has stood for so long against a mighty foe is FINALLY, after decades of planning and centuries of conflict, against overwhelming forces marshaled from near and far, etc., etc., for the first time being breached by an enemy. Basically, you need to build up whatever you are going to tear down for that process to feel significant.

This is what Tolkien does expertly, and that is why the narrative is so influential and so compelling, both as world-building and pure storytelling. By comparison, the film version of the RotK is rather amateurish. Denethor is a good example of that.

What struck me most when I saw RotK in the theater was how often the climactic sequences were laughter-inducing, rather than tense or exciting. Basically, at a certain point in the middle of the third film, Jackson loses control of the narrative and it starts to produce the opposite of the desired effect.

While the cuts to the Ents can be jarring, and one can quibble with some of the details, the same thing doesn't happen in the climax of the second film, which is supposed to be exciting, and is.
 
Last edited:
I definitely agree about Denethor. It's a shame, because it really wouldn't have taken much time to reference a palantir, and we already had the set-up with Pippin's experience. And then it could have tied into Aragorn's storyline about him assuming leadership when he uses it (that scene, which is on the extended edition, annoys me too, because it comes across as him failing, whereas in the book it's more his triumph--he fools Sauron.)

I disagree about the nobility of Gondor and Pelennor versus Helm's Deep, however. I love the design of Gondor, though I wish we could see more, of course. It's easy to see it as a long impenetrable fortress grown old in its ways.

Helm's Deep I've always found dull and dragging a bit. It has a repetitive lead-up and reptitive battle. Pelennor Fields never has a dull moment and has higher emotional moments (though that's personal preference, I guess.)
 
I love the design of Gondor, though I wish we could see more, of course.

Minas Tirith looks great. Basically a copy of pre-existing artist renditions, but a smart choice in any event. As for the portrayal of the state of the city's culture and the battle as a whole, I obviously don't agree, but naturally there is an element of subjectivity here.
 
I have a dumb question. If the Ringwraiths didn't have a physical form, how were they holding up the swords and why did they ride on horses?
 
I have a dumb question. If the Ringwraiths didn't have a physical form, how were they holding up the swords and why did they ride on horses?

They are like ghosts or spirits from folklore. Not solid, but able to interact with and influence the physical world (to a degree), and they have a powerful effect on emotions. They also exist in a certain place and have roughly the apparent volume of their former bodies, but if they weren't shrouded, you couldn't see them.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top