LOST vs DEEP SPACE NINE

[RobertScorpio]

OKay....back from the dead I am (if only for a little while)...

So far Lost is holding up well. It pretty much whupped up on ENTERPRISE and VOYAGER. Held its own against TNG...but now what about DS9?

Which show, now that Lost is over, did you like more? LOST or DEEP SPACE NINE?

Rob

 

[darthraidr]

Deep Space Nine. it had more internal consistency in terms of story and character.

 

[startrekwatcher]

LOST gets my vote.

LOST did what DS9 would only timidly do--full-on serialization. I loved DS9's Dominion War arc, the Occupation arc, the Final Chapter arc and the Circle trilogy but it would set it aside for long stretches and give us uninteresting filler like "Resurrection", "Sons and Daughters", "You are Cordially Invited..", "Times Orphan", "Valiant" etc.

Almost all episodes of LOST focused on mythology--all the storylines were connected so every week we'd touch on the interesting core material. As a result it led to a much more focused storytelling which in turn gave us one of the longest stretches of continued quality consistency in terms of episodes from season 3 to season 5. There wasn't filler, no awful episodes. DS9 on the otherhand did TNG-type episodes and a lot I weren't crazy about. LOST would have those occasionally--"Tricia Tanaka id Dead", "Stranger in a Strangeland", "Dave" for instance but DS9 had a lot more--"Soldiers of the Empire", "Q-Less", "Ferengi Love Songs", "Family Business", "Empok Nor" etc.

Both series though did well in shaking up the status quo--whether DS9 launching the Federation into a war or ending the Klingon alliance or LOST getting the survivors off the island in the middle of the series. Both also loved shocking or surprising us with wonderful twists--DS9's reveal Bashir was replaced by a shapeshifter, Section 31 created the Founder disease, the minefield in S6 successfully comes down. LOST with Locke's death and the reveal of the MIB, Ethan wasn't on the manifest etc.

Both did romance as about as well as the other--namely pretty poor. DS9 had Jadzia/Worf, Ezri/Bashir, Moogie/Zek, Rom/Leeta and all those early series Sisko romances. LOST had Ana Lucia/Sawyer, Sawyer/Kate, Kate/Jack, Shannon/Sayid. But both had one romance that worked well--DS9 Odo/Kira and LOST had Juliet/Sawyer.

While DS9 did a relatively good job with their season finale cliffhanger endings the episodes themselves weren't the best whereas LOST always hit it out of the park with their season finales. Not only were the multiple cliffhangers engrossing and had you anxiously awaiting the new season, the episodes themselves were excellent in their own right. The only one of DS9's that was up to the likes of "Theres no Place Like Home" or "Through the Looking Glass" or "The Incident" was the classic "Call to Arms".

Both shows ironically ended up with more interesting characters that weren't a part of the original cast and with the protagonists being more compelling than the good guys. DS9 had Dukat, Damar, the Founder, Kai Winn, Garak, Martok for instance and LOST had Ben, Widmore, Eloise, Daniel Faraday etc.

Also interesting is that while LOST's final season was one of its weakest, I always have felt DS9's seventh season was its best. I enjoyed "What You Leave Behind" magnitudes more than "The End". They are like night and day. WYLB is epic, thrilling with wonderfully emotional moments while "The End" felt like a zombie with very little soul.

Both had fantastic action sequences and VFX. The production values were outstanding. One thing though that was a plus for DS9 was it wasn't as densely-plotted or as fast-paced as LOST therefore allowing more more character time and quiet reflective moments.

But in the end LOST's heavy serialization, being more consistent and the way it ushered in a whole new format of storytelling--the Puzzle Approach, non-linear, out of order, answers not coming for years, the much more taxing task of structuring LOST--pushes it over the top. Although I will say I cared more for the DS9 characters.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

LOST did what DS9 would only timidly do--full-on serialization.

Yeppers.

If you think Lost makes no sense, how about the way the Feds conducted the war? Good thing the Dominion didn't attack while they were playing baseball in the holosuites or hanging out at Vic's. Or the pagh-wraith crap. The way the Prophets saved Sisko's ass in Sacrifice of Angels and then never really asked for anything much in return. The way Starfleet didn't seem to care that Sisko's loyalties had shifted to a bunch of wormhole aliens who as far as anyone knew, were in cahoots with the Dominion. And of course, the strained logic of how Starfleet actually won the war.

DS9 also had a ton of crap episodes. That was back when I thought it was inevitable that any series - especially those not on premium cable - would have crap episodes, so it didn't bother me. But now my tolerance for any crap episodes is effectively zero.

Both shows ironically ended up with more interesting characters that weren't a part of the original cast and with the protagonists being more compelling than the good guys. DS9 had Dukat, Damar, the Founder, Kai Winn, Garak, Martok for instance and LOST had Ben, Widmore, Eloise, Daniel Faraday etc.

Both writing staffs were nicely flexible with adding actors to the expanded cast who had proven themselves onscreen, so they're about tied there. DS9 had Jeffery Combs and Lost had Michael Emerson.

 

[ClayHefner]

I don't think they are even in the same league.
Lost does what it does very well. I enjoyed the final season and even liked the sideways universe (or whatever it's called).

But it also makes me glad that DS9 didn't go all serialized.
There's just too much stuff that gets lost on the wayside, and there's too many episodes with filler and artificial suspense. DS9 tried to be political, thought-provoking.

LOST keeps you watching successfully, and the flashbacks were a good way to make the characters feel real (although they didn't develop much somehow) but in the end too much of LOST is just smoke and mirrors and you can feel too often that they were making stuff as they went along, and that they changed tracks often.

DS9 never felt that way. Even the stunt with bringing back the Klingons felt "natural".

It all comes down to what's important to you in a series of course. But for me, DS9 wins this easily.

 

[JarodRussell]

Comparing apples and oranges.

But it's DS9.

 

[DonIago]

I don't think I can make a decision here. In the end their strengths and weaknesses balance to a point where neither is clearly better than the other.

I can say I'd rather watch a random episode of DS9 than a random episode of any other Trek series. I can't say I'd rather watch a random episode of DS9 than a random episode of LOST.

Hm. DS9 -may- have greater rewatchability in that in order to appreciate a given episode you don't necessarily need to remember as many prior details.

 

[sidious618]

I thought you had an embargo on posting threads?

 

[Seven of Five]

Lost over DS9 for me, but I love both.

 

[Mr Light]

Back in the 90s DS9 was my favorite show. But LOST is better than a space-mile Actually I rewatched a few DS9 episodes a few years ago and it didn't hold half as well as I remembered. That's true for all those 90s shows though. Their rudimentary serialization was so ground breaking at the time but nowadays it's pretty simple.

 

[TheGodBen]

Both shows have their own strengths and weaknesses, that's my insightful comment for the day.

Lost may have been more arc-focused than DS9, but because DS9 didn't rely on mysteries that the writers had no idea how to resolve, DS9's arcs hold together much better upon inspection. Lost would often reach emotional highs that DS9 rarely could, but Lost frequently used shock tactics in place of natural character development. Both gave more time to their plots as the shows progressed, but I would argue that Lost gave too much time to its plot in the final two seasons and used the characters as pawns, whereas DS9 found a better balance.

I vote for DS9. The problem with Lost is that it's... well, Lost. Lost could do great character drama and intriguing mysteries, but it couldn't do much else. Lost couldn't do politics, Lost couldn't do war and Lost couldn't do comedy (by which I mean entirely comedic episodes, not one-liners from Sawyer). With DS9 you can have the great character drama of Lost but you also get more variety. I also prefer the characters on DS9, too many characters on Lost left me feeling indifferent whereas I loved most of DS9's (extended) cast.

Besides, I'm a Niner, if I vote against DS9 on any poll I'll have my membership revoked.

 

[DonIago]

Expose wasn't a good comedic episode?

 

[JarodRussell]

Maybe someone should also do these polls outside the Lost board to get a more balanced opinion. It's like going into a biker bar asking "Do you like gays?"

 

[startrekwatcher]

Lost couldn't do politics

After DS9, The West Wing, nBSG I was perfectly satisfied to not have a show focus on politics. So I can't penalize LOST

Lost couldn't do comedy

Neither could DS9--I'd like to submit into evidence the likes of "Fascination", the Ferengi comedies(except "The Maginificent Ferengi) for instance.

And frankly the LOST writers were smarter than the DS9 writers--L/C realized the comedy episodes sucked(although some worked like "Expose") and wisely stopped doing them unlike Behr who loved inflicting painful comedies on us until the very end of DS9. Plus I appreciated that they didn't sidetrack us away from the arc for a ridiculous romp.

With DS9 you can have the great character drama of Lost but you also get more variety.

I don't mind variety. TNG had a better track record when it came to variety and having that variety be entertaining. I always felt DS9 was at its best when focusing on arcs and core material. Rarely was I engrossed in their standalone fare.

I also forgot to point out in my assessment of both shows in my original post that I thought DS9 did have more well-defined and more satisfying closure for its characters in its final season than LOST--Rom becoming Nagus, Martok the new Chancellor, Nog a Starfleet officer etc. Also DS9 handled the spiritual aspects much better than the ill-defined mumbo-jumbo on LOST.

 

[bigdaddy]

DS9 by a mile, it actually made sense and was an ending that answered most of the main questions and left some open for you to wonder about.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The End and its magical glowing cave, where Jack's destiny was.... to stick a cork back in a hole, reminds me a lot of WYLB and the whole magical fire cave, where Sisko's destiny was to... destroy the magical book.

Suffice to say, the character good-byes in both finales were far far better than their abysmal plots.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I voted DS9 only because its reach didn't exceed its grasp. It delivered what it promised to (mostly). Lost had the potential to be way better, but then we got season six and a non-sequitur finale. Lost started way better than DS9 though.

Good thing the Dominion didn't attack while they were playing baseball in the holosuites or hanging out at Vic's.

I think my favorite take on this is when O'Brien and Bashir are playing with their Alamo model and Quark comes over and harrasses them for it asking if they should be doing something more productive. They reply by saying that they had both been working all day long for a double shift.

The point is that even during war, people still need to find time to relax and enjoy entertainment. And the particular situation on DS9 is that it wasn't really the front line of the war. So what exactly should they do?

The way the Prophets saved Sisko's ass in Sacrifice of Angels and then never really asked for anything much in return.

Didn't they ask for the life of his son in "The Reckoning"? Plus Kira and DS9?

The way Starfleet didn't seem to care that Sisko's loyalties had shifted to a bunch of wormhole aliens who as far as anyone knew, were in cahoots with the Dominion.

He was always loyal to the Federation, and Admiral Ross did question his affinity for Bajor. It was mentioned several times how uneasy it made the Federation that Sisko had such a role, but they also didn't want to mess around with it and upset the Bajorans.

It was also pretty obvious the prophets weren't in league with the Dominion since they got rid of thousands of their ships.

And of course, the strained logic of how Starfleet actually won the war.

I didn't find it too strained. Yes, the odds were against them, but just like in real war, sometimes one man or a small group of people can have a great effect on the outcome.


All of these things were effectively explained, and several orders of magnitude away from the ridiculousness of some of Lost's magical plot contrivances in the later seasons.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Back in the 90s DS9 was my favorite show. But LOST is better than a space-mile Actually I rewatched a few DS9 episodes a few years ago and it didn't hold half as well as I remembered. That's true for all those 90s shows though. Their rudimentary serialization was so ground breaking at the time but nowadays it's pretty simple.

Nowadays I don't even consider it serialized.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Back in the 90s DS9 was my favorite show. But LOST is better than a space-mile Actually I rewatched a few DS9 episodes a few years ago and it didn't hold half as well as I remembered. That's true for all those 90s shows though. Their rudimentary serialization was so ground breaking at the time but nowadays it's pretty simple.

Nowadays I don't even consider it serialized.

It's funny soap operas and lots of primetime dramas in the 80s and 90s were heavily serialized and I see a lot of late comers as far as sci-fi shows employing the very same structure those shows did. Contrary to popular belief DS9 didn't usher in serialization.

Soaps had storylines that lasted literally years before there was payoff. Shows like St. Elsewhere, Hill Street Blues, Dallas, Melrose Place etc had self-contained season long arcs where they brought in new characters for a season before writing them out.

LOST and Heroes were unique in that everything was interconnected. Those other shows had modest ensembles that were paired off into 3 or 4 independent parallel storylines which were therefore easier to follow. Frankly after LOST, I'm ready for shows to go back to that but I doubt they will so I guess the best compromise are less complicated arcs like The Vampire Diaries or The Legend of the Seeker or Enterprise's Xindi arc employed.

 

[flemm]

Nowadays I don't even consider it serialized.

There's some serialized material, but mostly DS9's approach is more of a "landscape" storytelling style, a bit like Marvel comics has used in recent years. The background and setting evolve over time, with occasional momentous events. Some of the stories then contribute to the ongoing plot, but others just take advantage of the new "landscape" without really altering it.

At Marvel, it's been something like...

Event: Civil War
Resulting Landscape: Enforcement of Registration Act

Event: Secret Invasion
Resulting Landscape: Dark Reign

Event: Siege
Resulting Landscape: Heroic Age

With DS9, it's something like...

Event: Federation arrives on DS9, Wormhole discovered
Landscape: Political unrest on Bajor, exploration of the Gamma Quadrant

Event: First Contact with the Dominion
Landscape: Looming threat of war

Event: Political unrest due to changeling infiltration, Klingons invade Cardassia
Landscape: Tension and skirmishes with the Klingons, paranoia throughout the quadrant

Event: Dominion Invasion of the Alpha Quadrant
Landscape: Dominion War

I don't know if this approach has an official name, and I can't think of any other good examples of this style right off the top of my head, but it's a better description of DS9's approach than serialized storytelling, which the show really doesn't spend much time on overall.