Lost 5x14: "The Variable"

[Mr Light]

Actually I thought the gun battle in this episode was hilarious because clearly nobody involved knew how to shoot because they shot a hundred bullets at each other in close range and only 1-2 people got hit! I thought it was a nice touch of realism, as scientists and civilians wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

 

[Jenee]

And when did Jack become a gun expert?

I know! I was thinking ...'shouldn't Kate be covering Jack?'

 

[Mr Awe]

You're going to stop watching because of one character (a guest star even)?



To assume they can alter the past is to assume they weren't in the past originally.

That's not true at all. They are back in time but they have knowledge of the future. There currently is one timeline but they can force another. That's what we're talking about here, creating a new timeline. Or maybe, they enter a parrallel universe. The original universe stays intact but they effectively create a new one?

Mr Awe

You're missing my point. How can they force another if they were always there back in time in the first? They always had knowledge of the future and always took actions with that in mind. It's not that they can cause different results to take place. They already used their free will to create the future we know. From our perspective, these events took place in the 70s, even if that isn't the case from their perspective.

Actually, you're missing my point. It's a feedback loop, where the characters are the one thing (the variable) that can bring back the information from the previous loop to retry it from the beginning. So, the losties brought back the outcome of the last loop with them to 1977. They can try to make a change. From their point of view, they don't remember any previous loops but they do know how this loop worked out and can plan accordingly.

This transfer of information, of people being the variables that can change things, is what Daniel was getting at. They still have free will. In fact, I'd say they even have freer will than usual, if that's possible. They know how things will work out unless they make specific changes. You don't usually have this information. So, this additional information makes them even more powerful change agents, not less.

Mr Awe

 

[Gertch]

Actually I thought the gun battle in this episode was hilarious because clearly nobody involved knew how to shoot because they shot a hundred bullets at each other in close range and only 1-2 people got hit! I thought it was a nice touch of realism, as scientists and civilians wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

I was snickering because I could only picture a Police Squad! type gunfight where they are on opposite sides of the same barrel.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

That's not true at all. They are back in time but they have knowledge of the future. There currently is one timeline but they can force another. That's what we're talking about here, creating a new timeline. Or maybe, they enter a parrallel universe. The original universe stays intact but they effectively create a new one?

Mr Awe

You're missing my point. How can they force another if they were always there back in time in the first? They always had knowledge of the future and always took actions with that in mind. It's not that they can cause different results to take place. They already used their free will to create the future we know. From our perspective, these events took place in the 70s, even if that isn't the case from their perspective.

Actually, you're missing my point. It's a feedback loop, where the characters are the one thing (the variable) that can bring back the information from the previous loop to retry it from the beginning. So, the losties brought back the outcome of the last loop with them to 1977. They can try to make a change. From their point of view, they don't remember any previous loops but they do know how this loop worked out and can plan accordingly.

This transfer of information, of people being the variables that can change things, is what Daniel was getting at. They still have free will. In fact, I'd say they even have freer will than usual, if that's possible. They know how things will work out unless they make specific changes. You don't usually have this information. So, this additional information makes them even more powerful change agents, not less.

Mr Awe

Oh, I understand that. I just think Ferraday is wrong in this case. I don't think it's a feedback loop. His original explanation that all these events already happened makes sense to me (and by all, I'm including them being there).

 

[Mr Awe]

Oh, I understand that. I just think Ferraday is wrong in this case. I don't think it's a feedback loop. His original explanation that all these events already happened makes sense to me (and by all, I'm including them being there).

Well, Farraday apparently changed his mind after much research on the mainland and I'll take his word on it!

Plus, I like to go with the more empowering notion. That information empowers you rather than imprisons you.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Light]

The writers have said repeatedly in interviews that their time travel can't change the past, though, that they think that kind of time travel is garbage and ruins your show of its drama and consequences. So for them to go back on that, I would be extremely surprised. This is why I think it's a misdirect. They'll try to change the past and end up causing the established timeline.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Oh, I understand that. I just think Ferraday is wrong in this case. I don't think it's a feedback loop. His original explanation that all these events already happened makes sense to me (and by all, I'm including them being there).

Well, Farraday apparently changed his mind after much research on the mainland and I'll take his word on it!

Plus, I like to go with the more empowering notion. That information empowers you rather than imprisons you.

Mr Awe

The information doesn't imprison you unless you know what your actions were in the past. If you don't, you do whatever you like. It just happens to be that, in the future, those actions that you did were always done.

 

[Capn Flukie]

I don't think they will change the past, just our perceptions on what we believe is the past.

I thought Jeremy Davies was a great actor, I think he brought to Faraday a quiet desperation that made him appealing to me.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I thought he was a great actor, what part did you think he was bad in? Well maybe he was a little off during the "memory problem" flashbacks...

Every time he tried to cry or express emotion made me cringe. I guess till now he's been so low-key that I haven't noticed that his acting is unconvincing.

The writers have said repeatedly in interviews that their time travel can't change the past, though, that they think that kind of time travel is garbage and ruins your show of its drama and consequences.

It's not easy to write, because of the "then why does the audience care what happens?" problem - which is why we don't see it attempted very often in TV or movies, and it's pretty rare in novels, too, compared with the more popular forms of time travel logic that don't render the characters powerless.

The advantage is that it's straightforward and easy to grasp, and doesn't lead to annoying logic problems that writers can be tempted to paper over with cheats (eg, ENT's Temporal Cold War).

I think Lost has a shot at pulling it off simply because the characters are compelling enough that they are worth watching even if we suspect they are on a fool's errand, trying to change an unchangeable past.

They'll try to change the past and end up causing the established timeline.

Which means they are supporting the notion that time travel can't change the past - I thought you said you disliked that?

 

[Mr Light]

Going on Danny Boy's words they will attempt to use the nuke to stop the Incident, not realizing that they will be the ones who cause the Incident by trying to stop it. Irony!

 

[Mr Awe]

Oh, I understand that. I just think Ferraday is wrong in this case. I don't think it's a feedback loop. His original explanation that all these events already happened makes sense to me (and by all, I'm including them being there).

Well, Farraday apparently changed his mind after much research on the mainland and I'll take his word on it!

Plus, I like to go with the more empowering notion. That information empowers you rather than imprisons you.

Mr Awe

The information doesn't imprison you unless you know what your actions were in the past. If you don't, you do whatever you like. It just happens to be that, in the future, those actions that you did were always done.

And, I just don't buy that more limited view. Knowledge sets you free.

Mr Awe

 

[Michael]

But maybe the point is that Our Heroes™ don't know how everything will turn out. They might think they do, but all evidence so far suggests that they really don't. For example, it looks like the attempt to stop the Incident from happening will be the very cause for it to happen. Or Sayid, he thought he could change the time with killing Ben in the past, but it seems like he only furthered his bond to the Hostiles.

I agree that all of this would be tedious drama if they (and us) would already know how everything will turn out. But the thing is, we don't know what will happen. As Daniel said, this is the Losties' present. They can die. And I think that makes it all the more entertaining.

But I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[Mallet]

I think from a purely story point of view they won't let them change the past/future. Free will or not, variables or constants, changeable or set in stone, it doesn't matter.

From a story/series point of view being able to change the past in any meaningful way would negate the entire series. It would be just as bad as pulling an "it was all a dream" ending. And I give these show runners a bit more respect then to think they would do that.

So I don't think they will/can prevent the incident, or 815 from crashing, or Return of the Jedi from having Ewoks in it, or Charlotte from dying (or Eko, or Anna-Lucia, Charlie, etc...). To do that would be cheating the audience.

 

[Gertch]

I was looking around for some screen caps from someplace other than lost-media and found a page about an Easter Egg in this episode.

Episode 5x14 - Rabbit Through Glass

Cool!

 

[Michael]

I was looking around for some screen caps from someplace other than lost-media and found a page about an Easter Egg in this episode.

Episode 5x14 - Rabbit Through Glass

Wow, now that is cool!

 

[zengoth]

above average-
if this does turn out to be Daniel's swansong...at least we got a buncha gaps of his life filled it, especially his scenes in both S4 premiere and S5 premiere as well as his chat with l'il Charlotte.

(Musing aside, not a spoiler...Even though there are chats with the show creators about no "reset" plans, that events won't be changed...I wouldn't mind seeing a S6 where we see scenes from that original 108 days again from a reset or changed perspective. But I'm a big time loop fan from way back.)

The only thing that confused me is that, in '77, when big Dan is gunned down, little Daniel had already been born, right? . Charlotte was about 4 or 5, Miles was perhaps younger - i figure piano-playing 8 yr old Dan is already off the island. If so, how can Ellie be in 2 places at once...[must be a quick submarine trip]. Did anyone else get the feeling that the first scene with mom and son happened very soon after the last scene with mom & son?

 

[chrisspringob]

The only thing that confused me is that, in '77, when big Dan is gunned down, little Daniel had already been born, right? . Charlotte was about 4 or 5, Miles was perhaps younger - i figure piano-playing 8 yr old Dan is already off the island. If so, how can Ellie be in 2 places at once...[must be a quick submarine trip]. Did anyone else get the feeling that the first scene with mom and son happened very soon after the last scene with mom & son?

The Others don't even have access to the sub. The sub belongs to Dharma. It's unclear how the Others get back and forth to the mainland before they take control of the sub following the purge. We don't know really know what happened with Ellie....whether she was living a double life (as Widmore apparently was), whether she spent some time on the Island and some off or what. Nor do we know why Faraday's last name is "Faraday" for that matter.

 

[McCoy]

Just because we haven't seen him doesn't necessarily mean that little Daniel isn't in the Others' camp somewhere.

 

[Mallet]

Just because we haven't seen him doesn't necessarily mean that little Daniel isn't in the Others' camp somewhere.

But he didn't start getting bad nose bleeds like everyone else did during the Time Jumps. According to what he said, the longer you were on the island the worse it would be. Charlotte got it worse because she had been on the island as a child. Then Miles started getting bad, because he was also there as a kid. Then it was Juliette, then Sawyer (in terms of how bad they were getting). Daniel was the least effected by the Jumps, which means he was probably never on the island before he parachuted in.