Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[Orphalesion]

A Melkor cultist ( and not even a dude )

1)yes it's a dude
2) Sauron was the High Priest of Melkors cult, that guy's clearly a priest of high authority and might even be connected to the white tree fading just before we see him
3)the guy shows up again at the end of the trailer blowing into his hand, which produces some amber flakes and a leaf that looks like the Mallorn leaves from the old movies, which then floats through the darkness and burns up (which fits his war of destruction against the Elves) while there's a voice over of somebody saying "You have been told many lies about Middle Earth" (which fits the words Sauron used to charm the Numenorians)
It's clearly Sauron/Annatar

 

[JD]

Hell, I only know the very basics of the whole thing with Sauron pretending to be a good guy to trick the elves into forging the Rings of Power, and my first thought when I saw him was, that must be Sauron, just because of the way he's presented in the trailer.

 

[Set Harth]

1)yes it's a dude
2) Sauron was the High Priest of Melkors cult, that guy's clearly a priest of high authority and might even be connected to the white tree fading just before we see him
3)the guy shows up again at the end of the trailer blowing into his hand, which produces some amber flakes and a leaf that looks like the Mallorn leaves from the old movies, which then floats through the darkness and burns up (which fits his war of destruction against the Elves) while there's a voice over of somebody saying "You have been told many lies about Middle Earth" (which fits the words Sauron used to charm the Numenorians)
It's clearly Sauron/Annatar

It's not Sauron or a dude.

It is however the offspring of Luke Skywalker.

Did I mention CONFIRMED?

 

[saddestmoon]

The white-blond, buzz-cut, mysterious, magic dust-blowing character - as seen in the trailer - is supposedly played by NZ actor Bridie Sisson:

https://www.aucklandactors.co.nz/actors/details/bridie-sisson

And rumoured not to be playing Annatar either (that role is reported to be played by Anson Boon) - rather a Melkor Cultist, as posited earlier in the thread.

I personally don’t believe that we’ve seen Annatar yet, and quite possibly there’s some misdirect going on in that trailer…

 

[Disposable_Ensign]

It's just ridiculous that this series gets slammed for things like "OMGZ the female dwarves have no beards! (especially when Tolkien changed his mind on that almost constantly and it is never explicitly said in anything that he published during his lifetime or the Silmarillion)
But the old movies get a free pass for everything they changed (which was a lot!)

It's an adaption, they're gonna change things. Gotta live with that.

Changed his mind a lot? About beards on dwarf-women? Huh?

Yep. People fawn over Jackson’s films even though he changed a lot and added unnecessary bullshit like the Warg chase and Aragorn “death” takeout.

Angsty, self doubting Aragorn and changing Faramir from the one human to resist the power of the Ring to a guy with daddy issues are the two changes that grate on me the most. There’s a whole host of others, but I enjoy the way he brought the world to life so I just push past them as best I can.

I'm excited. Initially I was not but the production seems to be going in the direction of a compelling story based on parts of the Silmarillion.
That creepy Annatar fellow in the trailer was instantly recognizable, I can't tell you why.
I'm honestly pumped for this. Give me a solid story, respect the world.

The problem is that they are obviously not respecting the world. They're creating new main characters, changing the roles of existing characters, inventing new plots out of the blue. Peter Jackson did not create any new main characters, he adapted an actual plot, and he respected the world; in fact he was, in his own words, "adapting it for Tolkien", not for what is suspected that younger audiences will like.

I would definitely like to know more about Tom than what we've been told. Sadly, I'm not 100% sure even Tolkien knew what he was, outside of "older than the old" and "a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science." Tom is a true enigma and a source of unending fascination for me.

Some suspect he could actually be Eru.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Some suspect he could actually be Eru.

Interesting! Haven't seen that theory before. Makes sense... Interestingly, in the Fandom Wiki, it says "In a letter written by Tolkien, he stated that Eru again intervened, this time in the Third Age, causing Gollum to trip and fall into the fires of Mount Doom while still holding the One Ring, thus destroying it."

Talk about Deus Ex Machina! God literally pushed Sméagol off the cliff after exclaiming, "Enough of this shit!"

 

[Disposable_Ensign]

Interesting! Haven't seen that theory before. Makes sense... Interestingly, in the Fandom Wiki, it says "In a letter written by Tolkien, he stated that Eru again intervened, this time in the Third Age, causing Gollum to trip and fall into the fires of Mount Doom while still holding the One Ring, thus destroying it."

Talk about Deus Ex Machina! God literally pushed Sméagol off the cliff after exclaiming, "Enough of this shit!"

I'm going with that being speculation not decided canon.

Again, I would recommend Tolkien Gateway over the Fandom wiki, because it has nearly twice as many articles and goes into more depth.

 

[Jedman67]

The problem is that they are obviously not respecting the world. They're creating new main characters, changing the roles of existing characters, inventing new plots out of the blue. Peter Jackson did not create any new main characters, he adapted an actual plot, and he respected the world; in fact he was, in his own words, "adapting it for Tolkien", not for what is suspected that younger audiences will like.

They're modifying a story that takes place literally over thousands of years to fit into a TV narrative. There's a word for that, one second - oh yes, adaptation.
There are Authors Laws of Middle Earth. Certain events take place at certain times with certain characters. Certain races have certain abilities that others do not.
Then there is the eight-ten 1-hour episodes per season, with each episode or season requiring a beginning, middle and end. Unlike the LotR trilogy, which had a complete story that could be lifted from, the Silmarillion is 20,000 pages of world history, filled with short narratives about certain events (which often take place over hundreds of years) covering the creation of the world until the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, covering something like 12,000 earth years.
Narrative choices need to be made.

 

[Orphalesion]

about beards on dwarf-women? Huh?

Yup, that's why it has been a debate among Tolkienites for decades now. The only source in the published canon that actually talks about Dwarf women is that bit in the appendixes of the LotR:

They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.

And that can be interpreted in so many ways... And if we go with the interpretation that they strictly looked so close to Dwarf men that people can't tell the difference...well then the rather feminine/matron-like Dwarf ladies from the Hobbit movies with their dainty little whiskers along their jawline are also "inaccurate"

Some suspect he could actually be Eru.

I always thought that was the silliest of all possible interpretations. Tolkien was too devout to have his stand-in for god prance around as a woodland spirit.
I rather go with the interpretation that he (and several other unexplained entities, such as Golberry, her mother, the Riverwoman and the Mountain Giants seen in the Hobbit) are just genus loci of various things. Tom would be the personification of that type of rural idyll presented by the Shire.
Interestingly Old Man Willow could be several things. Many people interpret him as an angry Huorn. But what if, instead he, and the Grave Wights too possibly, are the houseless spirits of slain Avari Elves who have become feral? Tolkien did at one point say that a lot of the spirits that are called upon in necromancy are indeed the houseless spirits of Avari Elves who were unwilling to heed the Call of Mandos and either got corrupted by Sauron or other sources of evil or melded into nature.
The way Old Man Willow can control his surroundings particularly is similar, in my opinion, to how Tolkien described that houseless Elf souls often pick a place they loved in life and can extend some influence on said place.
(though that's just my interpretation)

 

[fireproof78]

They're modifying a story that takes place literally over thousands of years to fit into a TV narrative. There's a word for that, one second - oh yes, adaptation.

Or just read Tolkien's letters. It's got a nice index.

They're modifying a story that takes place literally over thousands of years to fit into a TV narrative. There's a word for that, one second - oh yes, adaptation.

Indeed, yes. And often times that requires a change when moving from book to film, and yes I know that stings many a fan. I have felt it.

But, that said, the purpose of an adaptation is to bring in more people, not cause the loyal fanbase to swoon. That's pointlessly insular to the point that when I see the idea of "respect the author's work" I can't help but think "respect my interpretation."

 

[Disposable_Ensign]

They're modifying a story that takes place literally over thousands of years to fit into a TV narrative. There's a word for that, one second - oh yes, adaptation.
There are Authors Laws of Middle Earth. Certain events take place at certain times with certain characters. Certain races have certain abilities that others do not.
Then there is the eight-ten 1-hour episodes per season, with each episode or season requiring a beginning, middle and end. Unlike the LotR trilogy, which had a complete story that could be lifted from, the Silmarillion is 20,000 pages of world history, filled with short narratives about certain events (which often take place over hundreds of years) covering the creation of the world until the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, covering something like 12,000 earth years.
Narrative choices need to be made.

It's a compendium of myths, and instead of trying to adapt one myth, they're trying to adapt all of them into some patchwork Frankenstein of an interpretation.

 

[Jedman67]

It's a compendium of myths, and instead of trying to adapt one myth, they're trying to adapt all of them into some patchwork Frankenstein of an interpretation.

As you have not seen the show, all you have to go on are the various news articles about the series, which IIRC can be summarized as follows:
Introducing Galadriel with the story of the Kinslaying, and then jumping to the Second Age with the making and giving of the rings, and possibly including the Last Alliance.
A story of Sauron/Annatar with Celembrimbor in the lab making the rings, with Sauron saying "is it done yet?" and Celembrimbor responding "Let's give it another 200 years" makes for some very boring TV.

 

[Ragitsu]

A story of Sauron/Annatar with Celembrimbor in the lab making the rings, with Sauron saying "is it done yet?" and Celembrimbor responding "Let's give it another 200 years" makes for some very boring TV.

To me, that sounds like a subversion; aren't subversions all the rage?

 

[fireproof78]

As you have not seen the show, all you have to go on are the various news articles about the series, which IIRC can be summarized as follows:
Introducing Galadriel with the story of the Kinslaying, and then jumping to the Second Age with the making and giving of the rings, and possibly including the Last Alliance.
A story of Sauron/Annatar with Celembrimbor in the lab making the rings, with Sauron saying "is it done yet?" and Celembrimbor responding "Let's give it another 200 years" makes for some very boring TV.

Indeed.

And even if they adapt the myths a little bit differently that is the purpose of adaptation and myth. Tolkien and Lewis both held to the idea that within some myths was a kernel of truth to explore and to understand. The idea of exploring these myths as one possible interpretation of mythic events strikes me as pretty acceptable way to explore these stories, and make them more acceptable in the future.

At least for me. I studied the Odyssey in 7th grade and enjoyed Armand Assante and Wishbone's adaptation of the Greek poem.

 

[The Lensman]

The problem is that they are obviously not respecting the world. They're creating new main characters, changing the roles of existing characters, inventing new plots out of the blue. Peter Jackson did not create any new main characters, he adapted an actual plot, and he respected the world; in fact he was, in his own words, "adapting it for Tolkien", not for what is suspected that younger audiences will like.

The Jackson films had great production values, but if I had to choose between watching the films and listening to the BBC audios, it’s easily the audios every time because they got the characters right.

And yeah, Jackson focused on action because that’s what audiences, especially young people, like. Do you think kids were demanding more Trade Federation
negotiations in Phantom Menace or Jedi’s and light saber stuff?

And Christopher Tolkien, who knew both the man and work better than anyone, disliked the films claiming that Jackson turned it into an action movie.

And everything you say Jackson didn’t do with LotR, he did with Hobbit trilogy. Fact is, the Second Age is pretty much a blank slate. We got the barest of peeks at it in The Silmarillion, and aside from the big name characters, have very little characters we really know much about. This show will most likely have the main beats compressed into a few seasons and filled out as needed by whatever characters they want to use.

This is, like the Jackson films, like the BBC audios, like the American audios, it’s own thing in it’s own version of Tolkien’s world. The only official version is the books, and they are still there for everyone to enjoy.

 

[fireproof78]

And no adaptation can take anything away from Tolkien's work.

 

[Orphalesion]

I think it will be fine for an adaptation. In the end what will be most important is whether it will be a good and entertaining show.
Though honestly, I really hope that someday we will get adaptations of what Tolkien considered the three great tales from the Silmarillion; the Narn I Hin Hurin, Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin and... especially... Luthien and Bergen. Really I'd love to see what they'd do with scenes like Tenuviel putting Morgoth himself to sleep.

 

[Ragitsu]

Considering this is all (expensive) fan-fiction to begin with, I'd rather see more side stories set right after Aragorn assumes the throne.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

JRR Tolkien did consider - and perhaps even started writing - a sequel to LotR called "The New Shadow" but he gave up on the project. I believe he thought it would be anticlimactic, depressing and uninteresting with mostly just men in it.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it could be done in book form because you had a lot more kingdoms of men to work with, and still the Hobbits too. But, it would be a delicate balance to strike at the larger themes of hopefulness in darkness, which I can see being very easy to slip in to.