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Lorca and the hard man making hard choices

Keep in mind that half of the criticism of Lorca isn't that he turned out to be a P.O.S., but that he went from Machiavellian to moronic in order for Burnham's arc to continue onward.

But he didn’t. He won. He overcame nigh impossible odds and brought down the Empress. The only thing that brought him down was the thing that brings down all proper classical villains, his one fatal flaw. In this case that flaw was Michael Burnham.

Unless you’re complaint is that he shouldn’t have been defeated at all. Of course had he not been defeated Michael, along with the Discovery, would still be in the MU. Cuz we all know Lorca wasn’t going to let them go.
 
Not remotely, really. A tragic hero is hoisted by their own petard - their fatal flaw, such as jealousy, is their undoing. Lorca just got stabbed with a sword. Very little poetic, ironic or poignant about it.
 
Not remotely, really. A tragic hero is hoisted by their own petard - their fatal flaw, such as jealousy, is their undoing. Lorca just got stabbed with a sword. Very little poetic or poignant about it.
Yeah his downfall wasn't his hubris or his arrogance or whatever. He just lost a fight when he was caught unawares.

Well, on second thought, his death was precipitated by his hesitation to kill Burnham because of his relationship with her Mirror counterpart. So I guess you could say his downfall was his moment of mercy and hesitation in a cruel universe.
 
But he didn’t. He won. He overcame nigh impossible odds and brought down the Empress. The only thing that brought him down was the thing that brings down all proper classical villains, his one fatal flaw. In this case that flaw was Michael Burnham.

Unless you’re complaint is that he shouldn’t have been defeated at all. Of course had he not been defeated Michael, along with the Discovery, would still be in the MU. Cuz we all know Lorca wasn’t going to let them go.

Your defense here of the narrative choice is that he was brought down in the classic manner of all villains - meaning he was brought down in a cliche manner. Which is why people are saying he comes across as a random Bond villain.

If he had killed Georgiou within a minute of her entering the throne room, Burnham's plan would have failed.
 
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Lorca obviously didn't plan any further than the point of capturing the Charon and deposing Georgiou. He already won, he was drunk with power, and he honestly didn't believe Burnham would betray him so he felt safe enough to gloat, especially after she presented the Empress to her and surrendered her weapon. Blinded by his hubris and his feelings for Burnham, I would say, but I don't deny it would feel like butchering his character for many, even if I do find it poetic. I might observe it's not that much different than Enabran Tain and his ill-fated attack on the Founders' homeworld, when he never for a moment considered that if something was too good to be true then it probably wasn't, but in that case, viewers never invested as much in his character as they did with Lorca.
 
Lorca obviously didn't plan any further than...

I think this is where the disconnect comes in for the people discussing this.

You're still in the moment. You're discussing the characters motivations as if it were a real situation. Your brain is attempting to attach realistic motivations to the actions that you're witnessing.

That is where we want to be.

The problem for me, and I'll hesitantly include a lot of other people unhappy as well, is that the second this garbage goes down our brains stop doing that. The writers have kicked us out of the moment. Our brains are forced to accept that "writers" exist and we are watching actors perform actions that the writers told them to perform. And we think those actions are so stupid, so separated from any possible reality, that our brains cannot get back into "the moment".
 
I hate when 'hard man making hard choices' is presented as heroic. I hated when they did that with Sisko, I hated when they did that with Archer. I don't want Star Trek justifying such behaviour. However, it is fine for an antagonist to behave so, and I thought this was where they were going with Lorca. 'Hard man making hard choices' as an antagonist, ultimately discrediting that ethos. Instead he became one-dimensional cartoon villain. What a waste.
 
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I don't really buy the premise of the OP. I don't think anyone has expressed a desire to see Lorca as a hero. It's more a matter of seeing him as an antihero, or an antagonist... neither one of which is the same thing as an outright villain.

Consider Han Solo. From his first appearance in Star Wars, he's obviously a profiteer and a smuggler. In his very first scene, in the cantina, he kills Greedo in cold blood (and never mind the retcons, we all know Han shot first). He is not a traditional hero in any sense. Yet he's charismatic, and steals every scene he's in.

Or for more complexity, how about some examples from serialized TV? DSC is always being compared to Game of Thrones. So, consider the character arcs of the Hound. Or Arya Stark. Or Jaime Lannister. (Among others.) Each is a complex character with conflicting motivations, navigating difficult terrain between ends and means.

A lot of us thought that was what we were getting with Lorca: a complex character arc. To frame it in terms of D&D alignments, he was Chaotic Good (or at worst Neutral). Then suddenly, in the space of a single episode, all the complexity was ripped away and he flipped to a standard-issue Chaotic Evil villain.

(In the end, it really wasn't even clear why he ever had such a large band of loyal supporters in the MU. What did he offer that the Emperor didn't?)

I mean I started off the series as a Lorca apologist. I originally saw him in the same light as Captain Jellico. But then Jellico wouldn’t have the murder room. He wouldn’t encourage one of his crew to glass a planet because “sometime the ends justify terrible means.” Lorca said that. Those are his words and people still wants him protrayed as one of the good guys...
What "murder room"? Do you mean the memorabilia room?

As for glassing a planet... I just finished reading David Mack's DSC novel Desperate Hours, wherein (spoilers!) captains Georgiou and Pike... under orders from Starfleet... contemplate doing exactly that to stop a major threat. It's presented as a major moral dilemma, as it should be, but it's not something that makes either of them a villain.

One thing I see in almost every post making the complaint is how he just suddenly becomes a villain. That's not true. We all saw and discussed the clues whenever they appeared. What's surprising imo is that anyone was surprised.
There were clues that Lorca was from the Mirror Universe (although they were also susceptible to other interpretations). But that was not necessarily the same thing as being a villain. At least, it shouldn't have been.

But he didn’t. He won. He overcame nigh impossible odds and brought down the Empress. The only thing that brought him down was the thing that brings down all proper classical villains, his one fatal flaw. In this case that flaw was Michael Burnham.
Yeah, that's not really a satisfying answer. First, because his romantic obsession with Burnham wasn't foreshadowed at all; it was every bit as new a development as his villainy. Second, because if he really wanted to retain Burnham's loyalty, he would've behaved very differently in the episode; instead he alienated her in some pretty blatantly stupid ways. Third, because it contributes to the problem (as others have noted) that somehow every significant development in the show is All About Burnham (not merely filtered through her perspective as the protagonist, but literally about her).

And heck, one of the early promises of DSC was that it was the sort of show that wouldn't have traditional trope-y "villains." Even the Klingons, we were told, wouldn't be treated that way; they might be the Federation's enemies, but we'd get an in-depth exploration of their motivations and politics. (Yeah, that didn't happen either.) So turning Lorca, arguably the best-developed character in the show so far, into a one-note villain, is just one more way the show has fallen short of its promise and its potential.
 
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The problem for me, and I'll hesitantly include a lot of other people unhappy as well, is that the second this garbage goes down our brains stop doing that. The writers have kicked us out of the moment. Our brains are forced to accept that "writers" exist and we are watching actors perform actions that the writers told them to perform. And we think those actions are so stupid, so separated from any possible reality, that our brains cannot get back into "the moment".

Yes, this.

I will admit I can be kind of a canon nerd. But it's one thing to accept something (no matter how ridiculous) as canon. It's another thing to accept that just because something is canon in the Trekverse it actually made sense and/or was a good idea in terms of story progression.

Threshold is canon. A Night In Sickbay is canon. Profit and Lace is canon. Spock's Brain is canon. Code of Honor is canon. They're all godawful nonetheless.
 
Not remotely, really. A tragic hero is hoisted by their own petard - their fatal flaw, such as jealousy, is their undoing. Lorca just got stabbed with a sword. Very little poetic, ironic or poignant about it.
They took him from being Machiavelli to Wile E. Coyote, getting stabbed with the ACME Emperor's Sword of Empirey Empireness right after stealing it for himself? That's pathetic.
 
Anyway, back to basics. Which is better from a story perspective?

1. A man who makes some hard (and bad) choices does so because he's a complicated person who is torn apart by a number of emotions, including duty, regret, anger, and determination.

2. A man who makes some hard (and bad) choices does so because he's from, like, the EVOOL UNIVERSE!!!!111111!!!!!11!! AND HE'S EVOOL TOO!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!!
 
Consider Han Solo. From his first appearance in Star Wars, he's obviously a profiteer and a smuggler. In his very first scene, in the cantina, he kills Greedo in cold blood (and never mind the retcons, we all know Han shot first). He is not a traditional hero in any sense. Yet he's charismatic, and steals every scene he's in.
But ultimately Han Solo is depicted as outright hero, there is no doubt about that.

Or for more complexity, how about some examples from serialized TV? DSC is always being compared to Game of Thrones. So, consider the character arcs of the Hound. Or Arya Stark. Or Jaime Lannister. (Among others.) Each is a complex character with conflicting motivations, navigating difficult terrain between ends and means.
Oh right, Jaime! A person who was perfectly willing to murder a child in cold blood (only ended up permanently crippling him, but the intent was to kill.) Whose biggest angst is not guilt about that (he probably doesn't even remember it) but the fact that people wrongly think he is dishonourable for betraying his king. Boohoo! And yes, they try to depict him as heroic, and it is pretty disgusting considering what he has done. I really don't want that sort of bullshit in Star Trek.
 
But ultimately Han Solo is depicted as outright hero, there is no doubt about that.
Well, yes, in the end. He rose to the occasion. But he didn't start out that way.

(And FWIW, we know from the recent sequels that in the end he turned out to be a pretty lousy family man during peacetime, and ultimately reverted to his criminal ways.)

Oh right, Jaime! A person who was perfectly willing to murder a child in cold blood (only ended up permanently crippling him, but the intent was to kill.) Whose biggest angst is not guilt about that (he probably doesn't even remember it) but the fact that people wrongly think he is dishonourable for betraying his king. Boohoo! And yes, they try to depict him as heroic, and it is pretty disgusting considering what he has done. I really don't want that sort of bullshit in Star Trek.
It's not bullshit, it's (as eschaton wrote above) an example of a character being "a complicated person who is torn apart by a number of emotions, including duty, regret, anger, and determination." And love. And loyalty. He's done terrible things, yes, but also good ones. Jaime's redemption arc is one of the most interesting things about the show (and the books). And the same is true for the Hound (who started out terrible, but has changed). And Arya (who started out innocent, but has changed). And countless other characters. Really the only character in GOT who hasn't been transformed by his experiences is Jon Snow, but then he knows nothing. ;)

And personally, the kind of complex character development GRRM writes is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see in Star Trek. It's not incompatible with the utopian idealism of the Federation, or the pioneering spirit of Starfleet. On the contrary, I think it could be used to demonstrate those characteristics in greater relief with more convincing detail.
 
The problem for me, and I'll hesitantly include a lot of other people unhappy as well, is that the second this garbage goes down our brains stop doing that. The writers have kicked us out of the moment. Our brains are forced to accept that "writers" exist and we are watching actors perform actions that the writers told them to perform. And we think those actions are so stupid, so separated from any possible reality, that our brains cannot get back into "the moment".
Following the discussion in the episode thread, I know fully well I'm in a minority with my feelings about his exit and even I would've chosen a different ending for him. I guess I'm lucky it didn't snap me out of the narrative as it did most people commenting on it. I'm no stranger to the feeling either; Fringe stopped being engaging for me after mid-Season 3 because of a bunch of really idiotic storyline choices and I could only persist to the bitter end through sheer willpower.

Even though I have to admit I sport a high level of enthusiasm for the series in general, Lorca's swan song did force it down for 'cautiously optimistic.' If it did that to me, giddy as I am about having new Star Trek every week, I can feel what it could've done to someone with greater hopes and expectations.
 
Not remotely, really. A tragic hero is hoisted by their own petard - their fatal flaw, such as jealousy, is their undoing. Lorca just got stabbed with a sword. Very little poetic, ironic or poignant about it.
However it was most definitely short and to the point.

Et Tu Burnham
 
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