Long-necked Klingon cruisers... but why?

[Crazy Eddie]

@Crazy Eddie : Where did you get your figures from?

Mostly from the "Starship Volumetrics" website and some of my own work.

 

[YJAGG]

Reasoned extrapolation into future possibilities is not fantasy. Fantasy means things that are unrealistic or impossible. There's nothing unrealistic about the idea that spaceships could get larger in the future -- as proven by the fact that the Space Shuttle was larger than an Apollo capsule. But it is unrealistic to treat deep space as if it were as closely packed together as the surface of the Earth, to treat spaceship interactions as if they would be identical to 18th-century schooners on the sea or trucks passing on the highway. Understanding that space is immensely larger than Earth is simply a matter of using one's brain.

YMMV

Back on topic : I can see the manta ray inspiration, but only backwards, but considering that booth the Enterprise and the Reliant were originally designed upside down to their final design makes me wonder if something similar happened to the D-7

 

[Christopher]

but considering that booth the Enterprise and the Reliant were originally designed upside down to their final design makes me wonder if something similar happened to the D-7

You can see some of the design evolution in the Memory Alpha links I provided earlier. While Jefferies did have some sketches in there with upturned nacelles, the final concept drawing was oriented in the familiar way. So, no, it's not the same as those cases.

 

[YJAGG]

You can see some of the design evolution in the Memory Alpha links I provided earlier. While Jefferies did have some sketches in there with upturned nacelles, the final concept drawing was oriented in the familiar way. So, no, it's not the same as those cases.

Wikipeida also said Jeffeirse wanted a predator feel and was inspired by a mantra ray, which I see but only backwards, as mantas have long tails and maybe that was the inspiration for the long neck...

 

[B.J.]

I think it was the proximity of the Constitution diagram that made me wonder about the curvature on the forward edge of the D7 engineering hull. Consider that dish-shaped curve, then look at the apparently corresponding curve of the front of the bridge structure at the other end of the neck. Would these two curves form part of the circumference of the same circle?

Perhaps the D7 was built with an upgrade in mind. Image that you dropped a big saucer on top of the neck, one that fitted the curvature of the engineering hull. You'd have a huge increase in volume, by comparison to the original, and still retain a very low profile in general. But what would you do with this volume? Mobile command and control for a deployed fleet? Kronos 1? A deep space explorer with all the same survey sensors, extra accommodation and onboard laboratories that Starfleet ships tend to have? A colony ship? The latter would fit quite well with the previously discussed idea that Klingons use warships as transports. A colony ship could benefit from the security and survivability that using a warship as your basic design might provide. Then, if the saucer was detachable and could be landed to form the colony, you'd get to keep your ship for security patrols nearby, or to return to the Empire for additional supplies. Seeding colonies is always high on the agenda of any empire, and keeping what you colonise is just as important, so it wouldn't help if you had to dismantle your only security asset to build your new homes.

Anyone know if anyone has done any renders of this idea?

An interesting idea, but the geometry doesn't quite match up:

I created this just eyeballing the curves for both D7 and K'tinga versions. Would be interesting to see a new Klingon ship with this idea in mind though!

 

[Mr_Closet]

Oh, well. Thanks for doing the diagrams!

 

[drt]

I've thought alot about this lately and did some analysis. My conclusion was basically this:

Klingon warships are small.

Now that's a vague generalization of the larger concept, but consider the Klingon bird of prey, a ship that typically runs with a crew of 20 to 30 (sometimes less), runs in the neighborhood of 150 meters in length, and is in some ways the Klingon equivalent of Starfleet's Miranda class starships; it is, essentially, a frigate.

The Klingon D7/K'tinga is supposed to be equivalent to the Constitution class in terms of speed and power, but in terms of overall volume it's actually a very tiny spacecraft; less than two-thirds the volume of the Constitution, the majority of which is a combination of engineering spaces and a pair of surprisingly thick nacelle pylons; the ship probably has about 30% of the Constitution's habitable volume, with the majority of the rest devoted to power generation, fuel, ammunition and defense systems.

Kang quotes a crew complement of about 400 in "Day of the Dove" but we only see his small command staff on the surface. A century later, we see a K'tinga-class starship roaming around in Federation space with its crew having just emerged from cryogenic stasis. This suggests to me that even the K'Tingas are designed to operate with an ordinarily small crew -- 20 to 30, just like the bird of prey -- with an engineering section packed with sleeper tubes for a contingent of troops that normally aren't needed except for boarding actions and planetary landings.

In tat case, the main difference between a cruiser and a bird of prey is the latter is big enough to carry a couple platoons of frozen troops, while also having better shielding and maybe a slightly more powerful warp drive. The armaments on a K'tinga are actually nothing special.

But then, this is probably what makes the K'tinga equivalent to the Constitution class: being a "cruiser," it is designed to take a highly valuable payload to a specific location and get a particular job done. On Starfleet cruisers, that payload is scientists, laboratories and their varied equipment. On Klingon ships, that payload is shock troopers. The difference in size -- and indeed, the skinny neck and overall sleek profile of their cruisers -- is that Klingons don't need to be CONSCIOUS between deployments, and the flight crew that runs the ship doesn't need (or want) to be anywhere near the drive core during flight operations.

I really like the idea that the D7ish ships are a relatively small crew running a ship largely filled with frozen ground troops and their equipment, seems like that is exactly how the Klingons should function.

 

[Shikarnov]

I never really thought about it, but now that I do, my surmise is that it's a detachable module. I know it's popular to think that Klingon ships are all designed for battle, but it seems to me that they must have many varied uses for ships. But given their limited resources (one moon's destruction, after all, nearly brought down the empire), perhaps they just reused the drive sections and attached different modules depending on the mission.

 

[publiusr]

I think it was the proximity of the Constitution diagram that made me wonder about the curvature on the forward edge of the D7 engineering hull. Consider that dish-shaped curve,

Now think about what you just said there: "dish-shaped curve."

And in the middle of the dish shaped curpe--a thin section with a bulb.

Maybe like a feed-horn?
http://satellites.spacesim.org/english/anatomy/comm/dish.html

• 
  
  
  

The manta itself also reminds me of old horn antennas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna

Not everything has to be a dish, it turns out:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/mirror-shape.jpg
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/O..._New_Telescope_Mirrors_Get_New_Shape_999.html

The Connie has better scan-resolution with a true dish--but the D-7--as a hunter--can sense movement better?

Matt knew what he was doing.

 

[Mr_Closet]

Maybe like a feed-horn?

Oh, that's nice. And best of all, it dovetails with the other suggestions rather than eliminate any of them. So, what have we got so far?

1. Klingon warships are small (Crazy Edddie), with more space devoted to automation/cargo and a much more specialised mission profile compared to multi-mission Starfleet ships, thus it has smaller flight crew needs, thus a small volume habitat is sufficient, which can be comfortably accommodated in the forward section because everything in the star drive section is either automated or in storage, vice Starfleet ships where access is needed to laboratories/sensors/mission-specific-equipment that is operated whilst en route.

2. The long neck facilitates the following:

2a. A tactical consideration: a low sensor return on the habitat section makes the larger, more radiant star drive section the biggest target, thus biasing the odds in favour of crew survival in the event of a hit (Christopher), with the added day-to-day benefit of healthy separation from any radiation hazards from the star drive, making the forward section a lifeboat of sorts (Christopher and Crazy Eddie). We might speculate that this safety measure is more important on the Klingon ship because, having a small crew, they rely on more automation in engineering. If the automation goes wrong, or is damaged by accident or enemy action, they lack the man power to respond immediately, not having any spare bodies to redeploy from other functions. If something goes wrong in engineering on a Starfleet ship, the engineers are up and close and personal with the problem and have plenty of available manpower to deal with it before the rest of the ship is endangered.

2b. In addition to a low sensor return, it facilitates a low area to volume ratio and thus, confers protection to important equipment which is stacked along the length of the neck which, compared to a saucer, has a lower aspect ratio overall (Timo). This suggests protection from enemy action, but equally well applies to errant heavenly bodies which might have slipped past the deflector, hence the alignment of the neck along the axis of thrust. It may also be a further safety feature in case the deflector is put out of action by combat - this being a warship, and all!

2c. Isolation of sensors from the 'noise' of the main engines (Crazy Eddie). The forward section contains sensors, some of which are possibly mounted in and around the multi-mission module in the front which is usually a torpedo launcher, but which appears to incorporate a deflector and, as a result, probably other sensors as well. These sensors could be blinded by emissions from the star drive, and the deflector probably works best when separated from the warp nacelles as much as possible.

2d. The anterior curvature of the star drive section, plus the location and general shape of the habitat section placed ahead of it on a long pylon, suggests a possible function as a very large sensor dish on a scale that would make most astronomers weep with envy (publiusr). This function is the icing on the cake - almost any one of the previous functions alone could justify the long neck, but combined we can reasonably conclude that the Klingons are capable of creating sophisticated and highly refined designs with a very low rate of obsolescence. Thus, Klingon designs stand the test of time and this offers an explanation as to why we have seen so little variation in Klingon ships, and so little obvious innovation, down the years in comparison to the Federation...

2e. The Klingons are better engineers and, being much more experienced spacefarers have designed the functionally perfect vessel for their needs compared to Starfleet, which is still experimenting with a huge mixed bag of different designs.

And finally, not forgetting the most important thing of all!

3. It looks cool (Bagofmostlywatr)

 

[Santaman]

That long neck is for exercises, run to one end, then back again, do that 20 times each day and yer crew will be in great shape.

 

[E-DUB]

Once your shields go, you're pretty much toast anyway so the shape of the ship doesn't really much matter.

 

[Timo]

Concentric circles - cross sections of shield bubbles surrounding the command pod?

Once your shields go, you're pretty much toast anyway so the shape of the ship doesn't really much matter.

OTOH, Klingon battle cruiser shields have generally been portrayed as skintight, so the shape of the ship is the shape of the shield and does matter to a degree...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DeepSouthTrekFan]

Back in the Original Sries days, I figured Klngon ship drives might not be as reliably shielded, so the command section and its officers was set at a safer distance from the ships drive core. For what it's worth...

 

[Richard Baker]

The fact the command head is covered in windows but there are none on the main hull of the D-7 or relatively few on the K'Tinga support this. If given a choice of raw power for battle over reducing the performance with he weight of shielding I thin the Klingons would naturally go for the higher performance.
Psychologically having the command head up front and leading is a sign of courage and confidence.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

2e. The Klingons are better engineers and, being much more experienced spacefarers have designed the functionally perfect vessel for their needs compared to Starfleet, which is still experimenting with a huge mixed bag of different designs.

This had never really occurred to me but it makes an awful lot of sense. The Klingon fleet is a "mature" space program that has basically settled into an established way of doing things that doesn't really need to change; they aren't innovating or experimenting (as much) because they have learned pretty much everything they need to know about starship design and space combat. What few innovations they DO come up with from time to time (the Vorcha and Negh'Var) probably evolve from a handful of brand new innovations that don't make sense to retrofit into the K'tinga class, but which are simple enough that the Klingons only need to develop one or two new ships to take full advantage of them.

Starfleet was probably close to achieving this "one ship to rule them all" standard when it developed the Galaxy Class, but didn't get it QUITE right and is still experimenting.

3.]It looks cool (Bagofmostlywatr)

/thread

 

[Tomalak]

Although maybe it's a matter of sensor profiles. From a distance, the biggest part of the ship would be the easiest one to target (like aiming for a person's chest vs. trying to shoot a gun out of their hand, say), so keeping the command compartment out on a long rod well away from the biggest part would improve its chances of surviving a hit that wrecks the rear section. Although that doesn't fit so well with modern ideas of Klingon honor and their fetish for dying gloriously in battle. But let's face it, that kind of eagerness for death isn't really a sound strategy for victory, so maybe it's more talk than actual policy. (Cloaking devices are even harder to reconcile with TNG-era ideas of Klingon honor.)

That's just it, TNG and DS9 tell us that the Klingon honour system is largely bullshit posturing. It's the image they like to project, but the Klingon elite are very much concerned with self-preservation and power, much like any elite. Appeals to honour and patriotism are very useful ways of getting the people to willingly sacrifice themselves for someone else - "Today is a good day to die", "to serve the Empire is honourable", "Dulce et decorum est", "God Bless America" etc.

Worf's arc throughout the series is about discovering that the Klingon culture he idolised wasn't really what he thought it was. When he finally gets to see Klingon politics first hand, he finds out they are largely liars, cowards, cold-blooded murderers, conspirators and, well, dishonourable. Worf is desperate to fix things, his boyhood dreams having been cruelly dashed. He gets the Kahless clone a public role to try to inspire the elites back to the right path, although that's futile because they know he's just a work of fiction. He eventually finds a good guy, and helps him to become Chancellor, but he suffered a hell of a lot getting there. His constant refrain is discovering Klingons act more like Romulans than they care to admit - right down to their sneaky cloaking devices.

So with that in mind, I have no problem seeing Klingon ship design as an extension of this culture - the elite officer class live in the head section, separated from the grunts by the long neck, which is easily defended against worker/slave revolts, and provides a useful lifeboat to save their skins if necessary. It's an Empire, so they must have colonies and likely have enslaved client races. We never see them, so maybe they are in the bowels of these battleships? (I always thought that was the reason for the smooth heads versus the ridged heads, but then Enterprise spoilt it. ) D7-like ships seem to be around for two centuries at least, so even if Klingon society might have evolved past this use of slaves by the 24th century, the basic ship design still reflects the tradition.