"Logic extremists"

[Midquest]

I'm not at all surprised that a logic-driven society has an extremist faction. A lot of Alt-right and Nazi ideology has been argued from a seeming basis of cold, hard science stripped of emotion. "These are the biological facts. and so here is what needs to happen, logically."

It's frighteningly wrongheaded and blatantly disgusting, but people still make those arguments in the guise of logic. If you want to scare yourself, go read the Ethic of Expediency memo, in which Nazis carefully and logically discuss how to make better vans for carrying the "merchandise" to the extermination camps. A lot of terrifying things are done in the name of logic.

Given those reality, coupled with the Vulcan consternation about human tendencies in Enterprise, I don't find it a stretch that at least some Vulcans in this era might end up practicing a subtler form of racism.

And honestly, if you're a society who prizes logic over emotion, and you privilege logic over emotion, it's not hard to imagine that you might start thinking your pointed eared self superior. Logically, of course.

Anyway, I liked this inclusion. It's good, I think, to acknowledge that the Federation has its own internal demons.

 

[Jadeb]

Let's not forget that this show has established that the Vulcans -- presumably the non-extremist sort -- practiced a kill-on-sight policy with the Klingons as a matter of routine practice. I think that bothers me more than the existence of the radical faction.

 

[eschaton]

I don't have any issue with such a radical group existing - it's entirely keeping with canon. That said, I agree the name is an awful term which reminds me of Enterprise's atrocious "Xindi Weapon" and "Xindi Homeworld." It feels like it was a placeholder put in the draft that someone forgot to substitute for some Vulcan-sounding word which would give the concept some gravitas.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Let's not forget that this show has established that the Vulcans -- presumably the non-extremist sort -- practiced a kill-on-sight policy with the Klingons as a matter of routine practice. I think that bothers me more than the existence of the radical faction.

Fire on site, actually. Don't think they're looking to kill.

 

[Jadeb]

Fire on site, actually. Don't think they're looking to kill.

What would be the point of firing if not to kill? And what happens if you fire on a ship when its shields are down? Not like the Klingons are going to respond to a warning shot.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What would be the point of firing if not to kill? And what happens if you fire on a ship when its shields are down? Not like the Klingons are going to respond to a warning shot.

To damage or disable come to mind. Starfleet Captains are are ways targeting engines.
Apparently the Klingons respect that sort of thing. Like coming up to your buddy and punching him in the shoulder as a way of saying "hello"

 

[Jadeb]

To damage or disable come to mind. Starfleet Captains are are ways targeting engines.
Apparently the Klingons respect that sort of thing. Like coming up to your buddy and punching him in the shoulder as a way of saying "hello"

Whether they're trying to kill or just willing to kill, the point is that the Klingons respect those who behave like Klingons, so the Vulcans decided to behave like Klingons. That's logical, I suppose, but unfortunate. The suggestion that they behaved that way indiscriminately is even more so, IMO.

 

[OpenMaw]

Yeah I don't buy that. Klingons are not about to go "Oh, hey Vulcans, we respect you for shooting at us!"

Klingons like signs of strength. That means they want to know that the person across the table from them is not a coward. If Vulcan's really did adopt that policy I can't see anything but Klingons organizing armadas and launching coordinated attacks.

 

[Jadeb]

Yeah I don't buy that. Klingons are not about to go "Oh, hey Vulcans, we respect you for shooting at us!"

Klingons like signs of strength. That means they want to know that the person across the table from them is not a coward. If Vulcan's really did adopt that policy I can't see anything but Klingons organizing armadas and launching coordinated attacks.

Yeah, that didn't make sense to me, either. They might respect you, but either they or you aren't leaving alive.

 

[Tuskin38]

Didn’t T’Pol advocate violence when it came to klingons?

 

[Albinator]

Yeah I don't buy that. Klingons are not about to go "Oh, hey Vulcans, we respect you for shooting at us!"

Klingons like signs of strength. That means they want to know that the person across the table from them is not a coward. If Vulcan's really did adopt that policy I can't see anything but Klingons organizing armadas and launching coordinated attacks.

It makes a lot of sense to me given Klingon philosophy. The Klingons view the Federations as cowards, and thus, someone to conquer. If the Vulcans adopted a "shoot first" approach, it would show the Klingons they are strong and powerful, and as said, earn their respect as a powerful foe.

Klingons are likely to view anyone as an enemy, and the Vulcans knew this. So best to earn their respect as a powerful foe, than be seen as weaklings to be rolled over.

It's akin to that joke about beating up the first guy you meet in prison to earn respect of the inmates ;-)

 

[mos6507]

You guys are forgetting one thing. Surak was the biggest spiritual leader of Vulcan and he was a huuuge pacifist as we saw in the way he served himself up as a peace offering in The Savage Curtain.

You can advocate for extremist splinter groups but they do not follow the main cultural through-line of Vulcan, which is sort of Dalai Lama-like. Neither does Sarek's advocating preemptive strikes, someone who would go on to become an ambassador, presumably to AVOID war.

The Vulcan culture (IMHO) was invented as a way to show how logic and liberal secular humanism are supposed to go hand-in hand, which is an outgrowth of 60s culture, that we can sort of "educate" our way out of injustice.

This is also true of Starfleet in general, as it suggests most of the crew are more scientists than soldiers, and they "science" their way towards solutions, something that was refined further in the TNG era, and why the show became so appealing to geeks and nerds.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, that didn't make sense to me, either. They might respect you, but either they or you aren't leaving alive.

It makes sense to me, actually, but I think Burnham was asking the wrong question. Sarek was basically saying the Klingons view the galaxy as a prison yard.

You have to kill the biggest guy you see to get any respect.

That was never going to avert a war but afterward, it might mean the Klingons would talk with you using a measure of respect.

 

[Greg Cox]

Vulcans aren't robots, they are a very diverse species as anyone else.

Considering how Sarek (the Mark Lenard-one, not Ben Cross or James Frain) was an almost radical pacifist, .

Sarek was no pacifist. As far back as "Journey to Babel," Spock stated that his father was perfectly capable of killing in cold blood if he had a logical reason to do so.

As for how the Vulcan's insular ways and open disdain for more emotional races meshes with IDIC . . . well, they're hardly the only culture that has some built-in contradictions. Indeed, one can argue that it makes the Vulcans more believable if they have conflicting values and priorities--and don't always live up to their ideals. ("Ideals" are goals to aspire to, not something everybody lives by all the time.)

And, as I've harped on before, the Vulcans have NEVER been presented as role models. Hell, the first full Vulcan we ever met, T'Pring, plotted to get Kirk or Spock killed just to get out of an arranged marriage. And Sarek was first introduced to us as a murder suspect! TOS portrayed them as a shifty bunch from Day One . ..

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Anyone can take a pacifist ideology and warp it into fanaticism. I like that not all Vulcan's act as 'Vulcan' as I use to think. Some ppl are just dicks. Just because Surak was a peaceful leader doesn't mean that his followers won't use violence to advocate his peace. Jesus loved all, but then...the crusades. Hell, Muslims are being eradicated in Myanmar right now by order of freaking Buddhist monks. Assholes come in every shape and size, to every creed and country.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You guys are forgetting one thing. Surak was the biggest spiritual leader of Vulcan and he was a huuuge pacifist as we saw in the way he served himself up as a peace offering in The Savage Curtain.

You can advocate for extremist splinter groups but they do not follow the main cultural through-line of Vulcan, which is sort of Dalai Lama-like.

That was Spock's perception of Surak, an idealized version. Just as Kirk's Lincoln was an idealized version based on his memories.

 

[Charles Phipps]

You guys are forgetting one thing. Surak was the biggest spiritual leader of Vulcan and he was a huuuge pacifist as we saw in the way he served himself up as a peace offering in The Savage Curtain.

You can advocate for extremist splinter groups but they do not follow the main cultural through-line of Vulcan, which is sort of Dalai Lama-like.

The Vulcan culture (IMHO) was invented as a way to show how logic and liberal secular humanism are supposed to go hand-in hand, which is an outgrowth of 60s culture, that we can sort of "educate" our way out of injustice.

This is also true of Starfleet in general, as it suggests most of the crew are more scientists than soldiers, and they "science" their way towards solutions, something that was refined further in the TNG era, and why the show became so appealing to geeks and nerds.

I feel like people have the 80s American idea of Buddhists. Which is to say it's a rich and beautiful cultural tradition but they seem to have this weird blindspot that elevates them above Western religion. Like, they assumed Buddhists never had their own martial factions, civil wars, or doctrinal disputes which ended in blood.

The Dali Llama himself mentioned he grew up surrounded by monks with guns in Tibet.

But yes, we already know the "Vulcan Hello" would have been done by the Vulcan High Command from Enterprise.

I.e. the Asshole Vulcans.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That was Spock's perception of Surak, an idealized version. Just as Kirk's Lincoln was an idealized version based on his memories.

I have no problem with him being exactly as awesome and kind as that version. I just think it's notable that maybe we should stop to think not every Vulcan will be as good and noble as their literal version of Jesus/Buddha.

 

[Greg Cox]

I have no problem with him being exactly as awesome and kind as that version. I just think it's notable that maybe we should stop to think not every Vulcan will be as good and noble as their literal version of Jesus/Buddha.

Bingo. See also T'Pring, Valeris, the Vulcan kids who bullied Spock . .. hell, even T'Pau gave Kirk and Spock plenty of attitude in "Amok Time." And Stonn didn't exactly strike me as a space Jesus either.

Spock is admirable, but we shouldn't romanticize or idealize all Vulcans just because Spock is so cool . . ...

 

[Charles Phipps]

Bingo. See also T'Pring, Valeris, the Vulcan kids who bullied Spock . .. hell, even T'Pau gave Kirk and Spock plenty of attitude in "Amok Time." And Stonn didn't exactly strike me as a space Jesus either.

Spock is admirable, but we shouldn't romanticize or idealize all Vulcans just because Spock is so cool . . ...

On my end, I think it's as simple as "Most Vulcans are nice people like most humans are in the Federation. They're a little haughty but generally pacifist."

However, we have plenty of evil humans in the 23rd century.