Location of TOS Warp Core Equivalent?

[YARN]

I am not sure the words "warp core" or anything close to it were ever uttered in TOS.

I never said or meant to imply that it was. That's why I used the phrase "warp core equivalent" in the thread title.

And that reveals there is no answer to your question, because the warp core wasn't there in 1968. Strictly speaking, this is as far as it goes.

The TOS Enterprise was retroactively gifted with a warp core when later shows started filling in the blank spaces of treknology.

Working retroactively, our best guess is to reason by literal analogy. Where is the warp core on ships that we know to have warp cores?

Do we know where the warp core is on the NX-01? Do we know where it is on the Enterprise A, C, or D?

Working from canon (which is dodgy since canon is contradictory) we can arrive at a vague answer to the question.

 

[Donovan Loucks]

That thing behind the mesh in the engine room.

I always assumed this was a gap between a pair of impulse engines. Then again, I got a copy of the Star Trek Blueprints (Ballantine, 1974) when I was a kid, and they've been ingrained into my understanding of the layout of the Enterprise, no matter how non-canonical they may be. Also, there's this from The Making of Star Trek (Ballantine, 1968):

Propulsion for the primary hull is provided by impulse power. The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer. Headquarters for the engineering division is also located in this same area, as are main engineering control facilities plus sufficient repair, storage, and other facilities to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel. (p. 171)
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All this implied to me that it's the impulse engines that we see in engineering, and not anything related to the warp nacelles or warp engine power generation. However, the latter can probably be controlled from there.

 

[Christopher]

I always assumed this was a gap between a pair of impulse engines. Then again, I got a copy of the Star Trek Blueprints (Ballantine, 1974) when I was a kid, and they've been ingrained into my understanding of the layout of the Enterprise, no matter how non-canonical they may be.

God, I hated that. Franz Joseph totally missed the point of the way the engine room set was constructed. The "pipe cathedral" set piece behind the grille was meant to be a forced-perspective illusion -- in reality it tapered backward with the pipes getting progressively smaller, but it was supposed to create the illusion of something that was actually straight and stretched back considerably farther. (The TMP vertical intermix shaft used the same illusion, right down to putting little people in scaled-down uniforms at the back of the set.) But Joseph missed that and rendered it on the blueprints as tapering exactly the way it did on the set. And I've always found that so frustrating, that gross failure of imagination and insight. The set designers did something really cool and clever and Joseph foolishly missed it, and that stinks.

And if anything, Joseph's mistake underlines how foolish it is to get fixated on "canon" and precise detail when talking about a fictional creation. Joseph only saw the literal fact of the set design and that blinded him to the imaginary reality it was supposed to represent. And the result was narrow-minded and conceptually unsatisfying.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

The series bible for TOS was quite specific about the nacelles:

The two “outboard” nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed.

(Not sure who wrote this or if everyone agreed with that person, but the note would've been seen by TOS writers.)

 

[Timo]

It should be pointed out that the forced perspective of the TOS set never worked properly, due to the multiple camera angles, whereas the movie sets generally worked all right (save for the infamous corridor-extending matte painting).

Although actually even the TMP set would work better if one ignored the attempt at forced perspective and instead accepted that the horizontal "intermix chamber" or PTC or whatever was just as short as it was...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

The series bible for TOS was quite specific about the nacelles:

The two “outboard” nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed.

(Not sure who wrote this or if everyone agreed with that person, but the note would've been seen by TOS writers.)

Series bibles are just initial suggestions that are subject to being changed or ignored if a better idea comes along. The original TNG series bible said that Data was created by a race of mysterious aliens, that Riker was called "Bill" and was prejudiced against Data, and that Geordi was a liaison with the ship's children -- and Worf wasn't even in it because he wasn't created yet.

It's pointless to call out a single datum as some kind of irrefutable "fact." All of this is just pretend, and part of pretending is having the freedom to change your mind and pretend something different from what you started out with, or from what some earlier person pretended. It's been over 42 years since TOS went off the air and a lot of later creators have added their own ideas to the mix since then.

 

[Donovan Loucks]

The series bible for TOS was quite specific about the nacelles:

The two “outboard” nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed.

(Not sure who wrote this or if everyone agreed with that person, but the note would've been seen by TOS writers.)

Geoffrey Mandel's 1978 blueprints of the warp nacelles (obviously patterned after Franz Joseph's designs) seem to reflect this notion:

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/star-trek-blueprints-sheet-13.jpg

Note the "Matter Compressor", "Matter Main", "Control Reactor", "Antimatter Distributor", "Matter Distributor", "Matter/Antimatter Integrator", and "Dilithium Crystal Converter Assembly", all of which would imply that the matter/antimatter reaction takes place in the nacelle.

 

[Donovan Loucks]

The "pipe cathedral" set piece behind the grille was meant to be a forced-perspective illusion -- in reality it tapered backward with the pipes getting progressively smaller, but it was supposed to create the illusion of something that was actually straight and stretched back considerably farther.

So, what do you believe that "something" was? Do you think it was some sort of power generator that fed the warp engines? And was it located in the primary hull or in the secondary hull, perhaps at the base of the warp pylons?

EDIT: I now assume the latter since you referred to the Drexler blueprint earlier.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Christopher: where did I characterize the series bible note as irrefutable fact? All I did was point out where the reaction took place according to the bible, in order to demonstrate that antimatter in the nacelles isn't mere fan speculation.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The series bible for TOS was quite specific about the nacelles:

The two “outboard” nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed.

(Not sure who wrote this or if everyone agreed with that person, but the note would've been seen by TOS writers.)

Geoffrey Mandel's 1978 blueprints of the warp nacelles (obviously patterned after Franz Joseph's designs) seem to reflect this notion:

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/star-trek-blueprints-sheet-13.jpg

Note the "Matter Compressor", "Matter Main", "Control Reactor", "Antimatter Distributor", "Matter Distributor", "Matter/Antimatter Integrator", and "Dilithium Crystal Converter Assembly", all of which would imply that the matter/antimatter reaction takes place in the nacelle.

Wow, forget about a warp core--there isn't one, according to that. Pretty much everything is in the nacelles in that diagram, including the actual "Space Warp Generators."

 

[Donovan Loucks]

Going over the script and video of Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979), it seems pretty clear that the refit of the Enterprise had the equivalent of what was later referred to as a warp core. There are numerous references to the "intermix chamber" and "anti-matter intermix" which form the heart of the engineering section.

Also, Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise (1987), though coming out much later -- after Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986) -- shows this area as being near the front and top of the secondary hull. So, although the term "warp core" is not used in these films, it effectively existed in them.

Now, this doesn't answer my question regarding the TOS Enterprise, but it does for the TMP Enterprise and later incarnations. Specifically, that those later vessels had a central power plant -- warp core, intermix chamber, what have you -- that supplied power to the outboard warp nacelles.

 

[Donovan Loucks]

Not surprisingly, there are some interesting tidbits in Memory Alpha's entry for "Warp Core":

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_core
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Here's the relevant bit:

22nd century warp cores were designed as oblong cylinders connected by pylon conduits directly into the warp nacelles. In the 23rd century, the main warp reaction occurred in a dilithium crystal converter assembly which consisted of two flattened rounded nodules situated directly in front of the warp plasma conduits to the warp engines, which were behind a large metal grate. By 2270, most Federation warp cores were redesigned to consist of a large warp core unit in the secondary hull with matter and anti-matter channeling into the core through vertical conduits, with the resulting energy directed to the nacelles through a horizontal conduit leading out from the rear of the core. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)

The vertical warp core was never seen in Star Trek: The Original Series (although there was one in TAS in what seemed to be a modification). During this time, main engineering contained two flattened nodules, situated directly in front of a large metal grate, which were shown as key components of the warp drive (likely to be warp plasma conduits to the warp engines). There may have been a warp core below decks but was never seen on screen. The vertical warp core's first appearance was in Star Trek: The Motion Picture and was seen in all subsequent Star Trek productions set after TOS.
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In short, this argues that the TOS Enterprise had something like a warp core, likely in the secondary hull and immediately below the engineering deck. This echoes Christopher's defense of the Drexler blueprint, and I'll admit that it's fairly compelling. Amusingly, it also flies directly in the face of the boardgames I previously mentioned. However, I'm not yet entirely convinced, though that may just be a matter of time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

2001 Star Trek Starship Spotter book referred to the refitted Enterprise as having a "linear" warp drive system while the original version had a "circumferential" one.

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise also describes the refitted Enterprise as having a linear warp drive, but with the vertical intermix shaft providing power to the impulse engines and other systems, while the horizontal one feeds just the warp nacelles. In this configuration, it seems dilithium lines the interiors of both shafts, regulating power to both the impulse and warp drives. There's no dilithium crystal chamber where matter and antimatter streams converge, but an off-center dilithium reactor room where dilithium couplings are contained (removal or repositioning of the couplings without a radiation suit is ill-advised).

 

[Donovan Loucks]

And I was just reminded that there's nothing new under the sun:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=84379
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HA!

 

[Christopher]

Christopher: where did I characterize the series bible note as irrefutable fact? All I did was point out where the reaction took place according to the bible, in order to demonstrate that antimatter in the nacelles isn't mere fan speculation.

Well, you did say it was "quite specific," which implied that it was meant as some kind of conclusive evidence. I was simply pointing out that series bibles are not meant to be restrictive or proscriptive, and that it's commonplace for them to contain ideas that are later superseded.

And I never said anything about "mere fan speculation." I've already acknowledged that there are some references in TOS and TAS suggesting the nacelles as the warp reactors. My point all along has been that any canon contains inconsistencies, and since it's all completely imaginary anyway, any given reference is subject to contradiction. I'm not getting into a "canon vs. fanon" debate, because I reject the underlying assumption that canon is in any way authoritative fact. It's all made up, so any part of it can be rewritten or overwritten later on. That's how canons work. That's why Spider-Man comics now assume Spidey got his powers in the early 2000s instead of 1962 -- later canon has overwritten earlier canon, and the data points that don't fit the modern interpretation are ignored. Because it's all just a story, and stories can be changed in the telling.

 

[comsol]

In the context of 45 years of Trek, Drexler's version makes sense to me. I think it also makes sense in the context of TOS by itself, where engineering was defined as "the lower levels" as early as episode 5. Given that we saw the dilithium crystals being accessed from the engine room in at least two episodes, it's logical that it's the warp engine room, and it's logical that the triangle of pipes are PTCs going up into the nacelles. Frankly, Franz Joseph's decision to put the engine room at the back of the saucer was kind of bizarre. I like Drexler's version, I think it's both logical and cool, and it was used onscreen. So I'm sold. I used it as the basis for my description of the Enterprise engineering section layout in my upcoming Trek novel Forgotten History.

Actually Franz Joseph's decision makes sense if you consider Matt Jefferies original concept of having the main power systems in the nacelles (according to an interview in Star Trek - The Magazine he originally didn't even see the need for an engine room). In that case, the only engines in the inhabited part of the ship are the impulse engines in the saucer, so one could argue that is the most logical place for Main Engineering. Also crediting or blaming Joseph for that placement is somewhat unfair since he seem to have taken it from Stephen Poe and The Making of Star Trek. Now who knows whether Poe picked that up from Jefferies or not.

 

[Christopher]

It's not the placement I'm complaining about, it's the way his imagination failed him and he misunderstood the nifty forced-perspective illusion. He left out the magic, man!

 

[Donovan Loucks]

Okay, here's a tricky one for those (myself included) who give some merit to the Star Fleet Technical Manual: If the "warp core" and main engineering in the Constitution class heavy cruiser are in the secondary hull, where are they in the destroyer, scout, and transport/tug, all of which lack a secondary hull?

This also raises further questions about the cruising speeds and available power for these vessels. For example, all of these vessels have a maximum safe cruising speed of warp factor six, despite having varying numbers of warp nacelles. However, this might be a function of both the number of warp nacelles and the tonnage of the vessels -- the heavy cruiser and transport/tug are heavier and have two nacelles while the destroyer and scout are roughly half the weight of the others but have only once nacelle.

Again, those who consider the Star Fleet Technical Manual to have no value will simply dismiss all this foolishness...

 

[TIN_MAN]

^^You've just hit on the main reason why FJ's designs are internally consistent, because in a modular fleet as he envisioned, having the main engine room in the primary hull makes sense, since all “class 1” vessels have primary hulls, but not all have secondary hulls.

Also placing the engine room in the primary hull wasn't FJ's "decision" rather, he was simply trying to maintain consistency with TMoST. And I believe it was Cary L Brown who has said in various posts that it was Gene Roddenberry himself who was the ultimate source for the "engine room in the saucer" idea?

In any event, there is zero evidence that FJ "misunderstood" the forced perspective element in the set, more likely; he simply figured it was the only way to make it work given the location he felt obliged to put it in, based on the references he had available. To do otherwise would have been to go against what was then considered to be official sources.

 

[comsol]

It's not the placement I'm complaining about, it's the way his imagination failed him and he misunderstood the nifty forced-perspective illusion. He left out the magic, man!

OK, I can understand that. One could address that issue by placing Engineering inboard of the undercut and including a longer row of tubes in order to incorporate the forced perspective illusion. That would also address the issue of whether the Engineering set would fit in the rim of the saucer considering the aforementioned undercut. I think that Ancient used that approach in the 1701 cutaway that he did a few years ago (although that thread seem to have disappeared onto server limbo).