life in the empires

[Captrek]

If Kirk’s exhortations to the Organians are to be taken at face value, life in the Klingon empire is pretty brutal for non-Klingons.

Is there any reason to believe things have changed by the time of TNG, or does the alliance with the Federation help the Klingons to brutally enslave other worlds?

In “In the Pale Moonlight,” when Sisko talks of the “safety of the Alpha Quadrant,” is he really just referring to the safety of the Federation, outside of which there are few worlds that are really free? It seems to me that for most of the worlds in the Alpha Quadrant, what is at stake is that they will be enslaved by the Dominion if the Dominion wins the war, or continue to be enslaved by the Klingons or Romulans if the Dominion loses.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

If Kirk’s exhortations to the Organians are to be taken at face value, life in the Klingon empire is pretty brutal for non-Klingons.

Is there any reason to believe things have changed by the time of TNG, or does the alliance with the Federation help the Klingons to brutally enslave other worlds?

That's one thing I always thought the show glossed over that it should've had the guts to address. DS9 would've made a great venue for that, but they never did.

 

[nx1701g]

We did see a Klingon World in TNG that was enslaved: Krios Prime. In that episode the Klingons accused Starfleet of assisting rebels. It was The Mind's Eye

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Considering the Klingon "Empire" is pretty much a plutocracy residing over a loose confederation of feudal fiefdoms, there's no simple answer to this question. Some Klingon houses probably run their territories quite smoothly, allocating resources on a need basis and giving everyone their fare share. Others--Duras' territories, for possible examples--are probably slipshod fascist mini-states subjugated only at gunpoint.

Political labels aside, there is probably a practical difference between "The Klingon Empire" and "Territory Controlled by Klingons." The Empire per se is little more than those colony worlds and holdings that belong to a handful of High Council families and/or assorted friends and allies; the rest of the Empire is likely somewhat decentralized, with various listening posts and border stations monitoring traffic from one territory to the next for billing purposes.

Now, the ROMULAN Empire is exactly the military dictatorship Kirk was describing on Organia (on account of the Klingon-Romulan personality swap that culminated in TNG) so it's probably a vast fascist superstate with Romulus in the center of a collection of puppet governments ruled by military viceroys.

 

[Anwar]

Yep, when Picard and Data went to Romulus he said something about how the Romulan citizens envied the freedoms of those outside the Empire. There's also the Tal Shiar and how the military and common folk are in fear/contempt of them.

I wonder what life is like for the average Cardassian.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Yep, when Picard and Data went to Romulus he said something about how the Romulan citizens envied the freedoms of those outside the Empire. There's also the Tal Shiar and how the military and common folk are in fear/contempt of them.

I wonder what life is like for the average Cardassian.

The average Cardassian is secure and comfortable, knowing he or she is safe from traitors and aliens thanks to the strength of Central Command and the ever-watching eyes of the Obsidian Order. He or she knows obedience and loyalty keep Cardassia strong, and that without the military expansion his or her family would be starving. He or she is always careful not to challenge the ideological status quo, but since he or she has been raised to believe the state is benevolent, all-knowing and harsh but necessarily so, this poses no real problem. Even though some Cardassians certainly have issues with the government, most likely keep it to themselves. Cardassians enjoy a reasonable standard of living, particularly compared to pre-expansionist times. This is all pre-Dominion occupation, of course.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

If Kirk’s exhortations to the Organians are to be taken at face value, life in the Klingon empire is pretty brutal for non-Klingons.

Is there any reason to believe things have changed by the time of TNG, or does the alliance with the Federation help the Klingons to brutally enslave other worlds?

In “In the Pale Moonlight,” when Sisko talks of the “safety of the Alpha Quadrant,” is he really just referring to the safety of the Federation, outside of which there are few worlds that are really free? It seems to me that for most of the worlds in the Alpha Quadrant, what is at stake is that they will be enslaved by the Dominion if the Dominion wins the war, or continue to be enslaved by the Klingons or Romulans if the Dominion loses.

The Trek books often deal with this issue; debates as to whether Federation alliances with Klingon or Romulan are moral, whether peaceful co-existence can influence the empires into change or whether the empires will influence the Federation. Vulcan-Romulan reunification often touches on this, as does pretty much any Federation-Klingon relations story. Of course, the Klingon and Romulan states are never portrayed as "evil", and there have been several stories that give at least a hint of what life is like on subjugated worlds. The Klingons assign conquered people the status of Jeghpu'wI, less than citizens, more than slaves. The Romulans enslave some races- Remans for one, obviously- but others appear to have similar status to Klingon subject races. Overall, the answer often seems to be that it is far preferable to make peace and co-operate with the empires, and influence them that way, rather than attempt to force change, which never works and causes further problems. Also, remember there are plenty of worlds that are independent, neither Federation nor part of a wider empire.

PS: A particularly interesting empire from Trek literature is the Regnancy of the Carnelian Throne from the novel "The Buried Age". Here, worlds symbolically accept slavery to the Carnelian Throne, symbol of justice and noble strength, and "play along" with conquest.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yep, when Picard and Data went to Romulus he said something about how the Romulan citizens envied the freedoms of those outside the Empire. There's also the Tal Shiar and how the military and common folk are in fear/contempt of them.

I wonder what life is like for the average Cardassian.

The average Cardassian is secure and comfortable, knowing he or she is safe from traitors and aliens thanks to the strength of Central Command and the ever-watching eyes of the Obsidian Order. He or she knows obedience and loyalty keep Cardassia strong, and that without the military expansion his or her family would be starving. He or she is always careful not to challenge the ideological status quo, but since he or she has been raised to believe the state is benevolent, all-knowing and harsh but necessarily so, this poses no real problem. Even though some Cardassians certainly have issues with the government, most likely keep it to themselves. Cardassians enjoy a reasonable standard of living, particularly compared to pre-expansionist times. This is all pre-Dominion occupation, of course.

My, my...you sound like a Cardassian! Are you one of us?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Yep, when Picard and Data went to Romulus he said something about how the Romulan citizens envied the freedoms of those outside the Empire. There's also the Tal Shiar and how the military and common folk are in fear/contempt of them.

I wonder what life is like for the average Cardassian.

The average Cardassian is secure and comfortable, knowing he or she is safe from traitors and aliens thanks to the strength of Central Command and the ever-watching eyes of the Obsidian Order. He or she knows obedience and loyalty keep Cardassia strong, and that without the military expansion his or her family would be starving. He or she is always careful not to challenge the ideological status quo, but since he or she has been raised to believe the state is benevolent, all-knowing and harsh but necessarily so, this poses no real problem. Even though some Cardassians certainly have issues with the government, most likely keep it to themselves. Cardassians enjoy a reasonable standard of living, particularly compared to pre-expansionist times. This is all pre-Dominion occupation, of course.

My, my...you sound like a Cardassian! Are you one of us?

I subscribe loyally to your ideology, yes

 

[Thor Damar]

^Excellent, another loyal servant of the Union!
Welcome citizen.

I do wonder about the status of our client worlds and their relationship with the rest of the Union, are they as... troubled as Bajor or do they enjoy a more equal and productive role in the empire?

 

[barnaclelapse]

Ooo! Ooo! I wanna subscribe loyally to an alien ideology!

 

[Jasper Sierra]

I wonder if Star Trek will ever have an empire that expands to the point that it becomes too large to be ruled by one central government and then fall into halves or pieces like the Roman empire.

I also am curious that if Romulus was rejoined Vulcan, would the their enslaved worlds be forced into the Federation, or would they be given the opportunity to decide for themselves?

 

[Sci]

I also am curious that if Romulus was rejoined Vulcan, would the their enslaved worlds be forced into the Federation, or would they be given the opportunity to decide for themselves?

I can't imagine the Federation would force Membership upon anyone, nor can I imagine that the Federation would accept as a Member State any state which has conquered a foreign population. The UFP would almost certainly demand that any new potential Member State liberate any conquered worlds before joining the Federation.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I wonder if Star Trek will ever have an empire that expands to the point that it becomes too large to be ruled by one central government and then fall into halves or pieces like the Roman empire.

I also am curious that if Romulus was rejoined Vulcan, would the their enslaved worlds be forced into the Federation, or would they be given the opportunity to decide for themselves?

In the post-Nemesis books,

Spoiler: Romulans and their empire

the Romulans have indeed reinforced the Roman link by splitting in two.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^Excellent, another loyal servant of the Union!
Welcome citizen.

I serve as the state requires.

I do wonder about the status of our client worlds and their relationship with the rest of the Union, are they as... troubled as Bajor or do they enjoy a more equal and productive role in the empire?

One can only hope other client worlds were less troubled, and more inclined to accept our allegiance. Possibly the simple over-abundence of resources on Bajor, and its great contrast in productivity compared to Cardassia Prime meant that...less restraint...was exercized in ensuring that the needs of Cardassian citizens were met than would usually be the case.

 

[Nerroth]

It might be on something of a tangent to the post-1979 TV/Movie trekverse, but the version of the Klingon and Romulan Empires seen in the Star Fleet Universe are fleshed out in various RPG sourcebooks... though the book for the Federation proper would be nice to see eventually.


In their setting, the Klingons are the more centrally-organised society, with varying populations within the capital complex, on major colonies, and in other parts of the Empire - as well as on colony worlds licenced from the Far Stars Duchy of the Klingon-allied Lyran Star Empire.

Also, the Empire is shown as having several subject races, of varying status and position within the Empire - from the bookish Dunkars to the radiation-poisoned Cromargs and the radiation-tolerant Vudar.

Generally, subject worlds are allowed to run much of their own affairs, so long as they pay their tributes to the Empire, don't try to rebel, and provide a steady stream of recruits for the Deep Space Fleet.

(However, the DSF restricts most subject race crewmen to serving positions as Marines, technicians, and so forth - and even keep security stations on each Fleet ship in order to watch for potential disloyalty.)


The Romulans, in contrast, have no formal subject races in that setting - their 'Remans' are identical to Romulans and live on a less harsh world than the Remus seen on screen.

Well, aside from one little mishap involving the USS MacArthur, that is...


However, there are a small number of what the Federation call 'Suppressed Races' - worlds which are at varying stages of development, but which the Romulans have not formally subjugated outright.

(By the time the Romulans discovered them, there were more immediate priorities for the Empire to trouble itself with.)


Neither place would be as nice to live in as the Federation, Inter-Stellar Concordium, or other, more pluralist societies in the universe - but as seen on TV during the Dominion War, the needs of survival meant that the rival powers had to co-operate when an external invader poised on conquest and subjugation rolls in...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

^Excellent, another loyal servant of the Union!
Welcome citizen.

I do wonder about the status of our client worlds and their relationship with the rest of the Union, are they as... troubled as Bajor or do they enjoy a more equal and productive role in the empire?

Indeed--that is also something I have wondered about. Perhaps the time of first contact has something to do with it as well? Understand I do not speak ill of the Union at any stage in its history ( ) --but a world encountered when the Union has spread as far as it has most likely would be treated differently from one encountered when the Union was newer...

 

[Thor Damar]

^Excellent, another loyal servant of the Union!
Welcome citizen.

I do wonder about the status of our client worlds and their relationship with the rest of the Union, are they as... troubled as Bajor or do they enjoy a more equal and productive role in the empire?

Indeed--that is also something I have wondered about. Perhaps the time of first contact has something to do with it as well? Understand I do not speak ill of the Union at any stage in its history ( ) --but a world encountered when the Union has spread as far as it has most likely would be treated differently from one encountered when the Union was newer...

Well, there was a ...certain amount of unpleasantness due to our early resource requirements and no doubt harsh measures had to be taken but I hope that many worlds in the Union were integrated more successfully than Dukat's failure on Bajor.

(sadly we never got to see the whole Union so we cannot judge its internal affairs accurately)

 

[Vulcan Princess]

Well, as the token Maquis here, I can attest that life on the former Federation colonies annexed by Cardassia could be quite dismal. We certainly didn't fare quite as poorly as Bajor, but the Cardassians were no friend to us.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, as the token Maquis here, I can attest that life on the former Federation colonies annexed by Cardassia could be quite dismal. We certainly didn't fare quite as poorly as Bajor, but the Cardassians were no friend to us.

Blowing things up is a rather odd way to cultivate a friendship, now, don't you think?





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