Lets Fix "Where No Man Has Gone Before"

[The Squire of Gothos]

I'm not describing subspace. Subspace has less dimensions than normal space. Therefore subspace can not accommodate 3-dimensional physical objects. It would require 'more' (not less) dimensions to accommodate physical objects, plus added features like F-T-L. Subspace only accommodates communications signals. Babalon 5 and Stargate has it wrong. The 'hyper' in hyperspace means above or beyond normal space. As in having more dimensions than in our normal space-time universe. Thus, hyperspace can accommodate anything of our 4-dimensional universe, plus added features, like F-T-L propulsion.

I'll ask as well, where is all this info on sub and hyper space coming from?

 

[larryman]

Hyperspace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace_(science_fiction)
Subspace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspace_(Star_Trek)

 

[Outpost4]

Well that was certainly uninformative.

Don't bother, folks, with the links.

 

[3D Master]

IMO - hyperspace is a higher plane of existance, attached to normal space-time. Objects in hyperspace would be comparable to ghosts - to a 'normal space' point of view. And just like ghost... hyperspace objects can pass through 'normal space' objects at speeds faster than light, in any direction of travel they choose, and with no physical interaction. Hyperspace is almost like an alternate space-time dimensional existance (Mirror, Mirror). But not quite, as it is still attached to our 'normal' space-time dimensional universe. A ship in hyperspace would be comparable to the USS Defiant, as it phased out of our 'normal' space-time universe, in the "The Tholian Web" episode. Seems the Federation had a ship in hyperspace briefly, without ever knowing it. Unfortunate that the Defiant's crew was dead, and the ship did not have a proper drive mechanism to provide mobility in the hyperspace. I dont think thrusters, impulse engines, and certainly not space-warp fields, would work in a hyperspace environment. I think a hyperspace drive would need to be more 'etherial' in function. Possibly... an ectoplasm drive, lol. But, I'd prefer to call it a hyperdrive - as in a hyper-space drive - which is not so spoooky. Anyway... it is an alternate F-T-L mechanism that should co-exist in the Star Trek universe. Especially in a Forbidden Planet / Star Trek universe.

What you're now describing is actually subspace. Hyperspace is an entirely different dimension, made out of something totally alien. Look at Babylon 5 and Stargate for examples of hyperspace.

I'm not describing subspace. Subspace has less dimensions than normal space. Therefore subspace can not accommodate 3-dimensional physical objects. It would require 'more' (not less) dimensions to accommodate physical objects, plus added features like F-T-L. Subspace only accommodates communications signals.

That's why Star Trek has been using subspace for FTL all this time, no doubt. The subspace doesn't need to be multiple dimensions to create a bubble of it (in which normal space exists) and in which a ship can be.

Babalon 5 and Stargate has it wrong. The 'hyper' in hyperspace means above or beyond normal space. As in having more dimensions than in our normal space-time universe. Thus, hyperspace can accommodate anything of our 4-dimensional universe, plus added features, like F-T-L propulsion.

Which means they've got it right.

 

[larryman]

What you're now describing is actually subspace. Hyperspace is an entirely different dimension, made out of something totally alien. Look at Babylon 5 and Stargate for examples of hyperspace.

I'm not describing subspace. Subspace has less dimensions than normal space. Therefore subspace can not accommodate 3-dimensional physical objects. It would require 'more' (not less) dimensions to accommodate physical objects, plus added features like F-T-L. Subspace only accommodates communications signals.

That's why Star Trek has been using subspace for FTL all this time, no doubt. The subspace doesn't need to be multiple dimensions to create a bubble of it (in which normal space exists) and in which a ship can be.

Babalon 5 and Stargate has it wrong. The 'hyper' in hyperspace means above or beyond normal space. As in having more dimensions than in our normal space-time universe. Thus, hyperspace can accommodate anything of our 4-dimensional universe, plus added features, like F-T-L propulsion.

Which means they've got it right.

Now you have changed the subject from subspace and hyperspace (extensions to 'normal' space), to spacewarps of 'normal' space. The bubble, I think you are referring to, is a spacewarp bubble (warpdrive field), which is created 'in' normal 4-dimensional space, and also 'contains' it's own 'seperate' 4-dimensional space, and a warpdrive ship within it. The spacewarp bubble is not created in subspace or hyperspace. The warp bubble acts upon normal 4-dimensional space by compressing it in the direction of desired ship travel, and expanding it in the oposite direction. To act upon normal space, it must exist in normal space. And to contain a physical object (the warp ship), it must also contain a 4-dimensional normal space inside the bubble. And the space inside the bubble is an 'alternate' space - as in a miniature 4-d alternate universe, containing only the warp ship. It's all about creating a new 4-d ship universe within a pre-existing 4-d normal-space universe. I dont see any way that subspace (or hyperspace) is involved in this.

And if Babalon 5 and Stargate are sticking 3d objects into a 2-d subspace... then did they sacrifice the height, the width, or the depth of those objects in doing so? And how do they restore the now 2d object back to 3d in normal space, after they have lost one dimensional component of normal physical existance?

 

[3D Master]

I'm not describing subspace. Subspace has less dimensions than normal space. Therefore subspace can not accommodate 3-dimensional physical objects. It would require 'more' (not less) dimensions to accommodate physical objects, plus added features like F-T-L. Subspace only accommodates communications signals.

That's why Star Trek has been using subspace for FTL all this time, no doubt. The subspace doesn't need to be multiple dimensions to create a bubble of it (in which normal space exists) and in which a ship can be.

Babalon 5 and Stargate has it wrong. The 'hyper' in hyperspace means above or beyond normal space. As in having more dimensions than in our normal space-time universe. Thus, hyperspace can accommodate anything of our 4-dimensional universe, plus added features, like F-T-L propulsion.

Which means they've got it right.

Now you have changed the subject from subspace and hyperspace (extensions to 'normal' space), to spacewarps of 'normal' space. The bubble, I think you are referring to, is a spacewarp bubble (warpdrive field), which is created 'in' normal 4-dimensional space, and also 'contains' it's own 'seperate' 4-dimensional space, and a warpdrive ship within it. The spacewarp bubble is not created in subspace or hyperspace. The warp bubble acts upon normal 4-dimensional space by compressing it in the direction of desired ship travel, and expanding it in the oposite direction. To act upon normal space, it must exist in normal space. And to contain a physical object (the warp ship), it must also contain a 4-dimensional normal space inside the bubble. And the space inside the bubble is an 'alternate' space - as in a miniature 4-d alternate universe, containing only the warp ship. It's all about creating a new 4-d ship universe within a pre-existing 4-d normal-space universe. I dont see any way that subspace (or hyperspace) is involved in this.

The bubble is made out of subspace, it's the barrier between the ship and the rest of the universe. This is the way Star Trek has always presented it, and the way 1995 warp drive theory also represented.

And if Babalon 5 and Stargate are sticking 3d objects into a 2-d subspace... then did they sacrifice the height, the width, or the depth of those objects in doing so? And how do they restore the now 2d object back to 3d in normal space, after they have lost one dimensional component of normal physical existance?

They don't don't stick objects into subspace, they stick objects into hyperspace. But this hyperspace is not, as you imagine, just some slightly shifted, not quite space (which is subspace), but an entirely separate dimension, with its own physical phenomenon, and structure of space/time.

 

[larryman]

That's why Star Trek has been using subspace for FTL all this time, no doubt. The subspace doesn't need to be multiple dimensions to create a bubble of it (in which normal space exists) and in which a ship can be.

Which means they've got it right.

Now you have changed the subject from subspace and hyperspace (extensions to 'normal' space), to spacewarps of 'normal' space. The bubble, I think you are referring to, is a spacewarp bubble (warpdrive field), which is created 'in' normal 4-dimensional space, and also 'contains' it's own 'seperate' 4-dimensional space, and a warpdrive ship within it. The spacewarp bubble is not created in subspace or hyperspace. The warp bubble acts upon normal 4-dimensional space by compressing it in the direction of desired ship travel, and expanding it in the oposite direction. To act upon normal space, it must exist in normal space. And to contain a physical object (the warp ship), it must also contain a 4-dimensional normal space inside the bubble. And the space inside the bubble is an 'alternate' space - as in a miniature 4-d alternate universe, containing only the warp ship. It's all about creating a new 4-d ship universe within a pre-existing 4-d normal-space universe. I dont see any way that subspace (or hyperspace) is involved in this.

The bubble is made out of subspace, it's the barrier between the ship and the rest of the universe. This is the way Star Trek has always presented it, and the way 1995 warp drive theory also represented.

And if Babalon 5 and Stargate are sticking 3d objects into a 2-d subspace... then did they sacrifice the height, the width, or the depth of those objects in doing so? And how do they restore the now 2d object back to 3d in normal space, after they have lost one dimensional component of normal physical existance?

They don't don't stick objects into subspace, they stick objects into hyperspace. But this hyperspace is not, as you imagine, just some slightly shifted, not quite space (which is subspace), but an entirely separate dimension, with its own physical phenomenon, and structure of space/time.

Ok. I accept this: "The bubble is made out of subspace, it's the barrier between the ship and the rest of the universe." But I would not refer to a ship in that subspace-bubble as being 'in subspace'. That's misleading. It's still in a 3d space, not a 2d subspace. Even though it is an isolated 3d space, from our normal 3d space.

And if Babalon 5 and Stargate are using hyperspace (and not subspace) for F-T-L ship travel... that's ok too.

But I still maintain my description of hyperspace is not a description of subspace.

Now, moving forward... weither by my description, or Stargate's description, or Babalon 5's description... Star Trek TOS should accomidate hyperspace ship travel as a valid alternate F-T-L technology, due to it's preponderance throughout prior, and contemporary, sci-fi usage. And dump the narrow-minded mindset, that warpdrive is the 'only' artificial mechanism possible to achieve F-T-L space-travel. And also, add robots.

And since WNMHGB is the pilot episode of Star Trek... re-form the episode dialog and SS Valient recording to imply Star Trek is a derivitive of a "Forbidden Planet" prequel era (hyperspace flying saucers, Robby robots, etc.) - and override the NX-01 official canon. If necessary, do so in a new Star Trek universe - with fresh new canon, begining with a 100-year "Forbidden Planet" era. And set that up for a sequel TV/movie series of Star Trek: The Forbidden Planet Era (or some other name). Get Star Trek 'finally' hard-conected to it's real source. Then we can finally enjoy continous adventures of early human (only) exploration and colonization of nearby star systems, following a Trek-ish version of the new C-57-G hyperspace patrol saucer cruiser (named Enterprise), with a mixed sex/race crew with near ST:TOS clothes and hardware, as they maintain order in the United Planets, and persue rumored other still-existing Krell alien civilizations. And spending more time on alien planets and less time in space. All the while knowing that this era leads into a revised Star Trek TOS era - the formation of the "United Federation of Planets" from the existing "United Planets" - when they encounter their first 'living' aliens - the Vulcans. And the 'too many' other humanoid alien species introduced by prior Trek's.

 

[3D Master]

Now, moving forward... weither by my description, or Stargate's description, or Babalon 5's description... Star Trek TOS should accomidate hyperspace ship travel as a valid alternate F-T-L technology, due to it's preponderance throughout prior, and contemporary, sci-fi usage. And dump the narrow-minded mindset, that warpdrive is the 'only' artificial mechanism possible to achieve F-T-L space-travel. And also, add robots.

Star Trek doesn't though. There's Iconian gateways, Transwarp conduits and similar Quantum Slipstreams (which I hazzard a guess is much closer to what happened in TMP than it being an actual wormhole, the science just wasn't advanced enough to recognize the difference), Coaxial Warp drives (which is essentially nBSGs jump drive, but doing many jumps automatically after another, which strictly speaking is not a warp drive at all), wormholes (the tube of which is embedded in Hyperspace), etc. etc.

It's just that warp drive, and subspace (evidence of its existence are all around us and thus can be studied quite easily) are the simplest easiest FTL to pull of. Hyperdrives and hyperspace and the rest requires a science and technology well above what is required for a warp drive. Hence we see most cultures having a warp drive or derivative, and only more advanced cultures have other, more advanced, FTL drives.

In the 24th century indeed, the Federation is fighting to break that barrier. They are already advanced enough to build and understand most of the science and technology that allows them to take it to the next level. They haven't quite managed to perfect them enough they can use it yet, but that's only a matter of time.

And since WNMHGB is the pilot episode of Star Trek... re-form the episode dialog and SS Valient recording to imply Star Trek is a derivitive of a "Forbidden Planet" prequel era (hyperspace flying saucers, Robby robots, etc.) - and override the NX-01 official canon. If necessary, do so in a new Star Trek universe - with fresh new canon, begining with a 100-year "Forbidden Planet" era. And set that up for a sequel TV/movie series of Star Trek: The Forbidden Planet Era (or some other name). Get Star Trek 'finally' hard-conected to it's real source. Then we can finally enjoy continous adventures of early human (only) exploration and colonization of nearby star systems, following a Trek-ish version of the new C-57-G hyperspace patrol saucer cruiser (named Enterprise), with a mixed sex/race crew with near ST:TOS clothes and hardware, as they maintain order in the United Planets, and persue rumored other still-existing Krell alien civilizations. And spending more time on alien planets and less time in space. All the while knowing that this era leads into a revised Star Trek TOS era - the formation of the "United Federation of Planets" from the existing "United Planets" - when they encounter their first 'living' aliens - the Vulcans. And the 'too many' other humanoid alien species introduced by prior Trek's.

??? But we already have a long history of Star Trek before Star Trek - and I'm not talking about the NX-01 Enterprise bullshit - one doesn't need to rewrite it, only to put something in there, that requires another heavy rewrite.

Seriously, Forbidden Planet, however good it was, is HEAVILY filled with 50s sensibilities. Indeed, in most cases when C-57-D pops up in fanfiction; often in crossovers, they treat Forbidden Planet as the product of an alternate timeline where the South of America won the Civil War, and subsequent wars and world wars made racial segregation a continuing human theme, and in the time of the C-57-D races have their own planets - and their own ships. (With the exception perhpas, of cultures who refused to go with racial segregation even after losing a war about it, and having left Earth behind to create a racially mixed planet here and there, where the rest of the planets look upon with disdain.)

I find the back history of TOS, and later Star Treks (minus Enterprise) far more compelling than shoe-horning C-57-D ships in there.

 

[Gepard]

*pokes head in*

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but subspace and hyperspace don't really exist or have any of the properties being hotly debated...right? Right?

Somebody?

 

[Timo]

Well, "subspace" as a mathematical construct is literally kindergarten stuff. Any space that is a subset of a larger space is subspace to that larger space, as we learn by drawing wobbly ovals around groups of apples or mice or flowers.

Apart from that, though, all the above discussion of subspace as a feature of our universe is utter nonsense. Except as a completely fictional concept, which is synonymously known as hyperspace. Except, of course, when a fiction writer decides there should be a difference.

Perhaps the two gentlemen above are discussing a particular fictional setting? They should specify which one, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

Well, "subspace" as a mathematical construct is literally kindergarten stuff. Any space that is a subset of a larger space is subspace to that larger space, as we learn by drawing wobbly ovals around groups of apples or mice or flowers.

Apart from that, though, all the above discussion of subspace as a feature of our universe is utter nonsense.

Ah, someone who's never heard of super string physics. It's the cutting edge stuff. Space/time isn't 4 nice dimensions, there are many more, and subspace is one of them. This isn't nonsense, it's REAL.

 

[Timo]

'Xept that it has got nothing to do with "subspace" (nobody uses that word in connection with the theory, except in the sense of "subset"), and has no implications for "underspace shortcuts" or any nonsense like that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ClayinCA]

So, um...nobody just wants to "fix" WNMHGB by putting Sally Kellerman and Andrea Dromm in mini-skirts, then....?

 

[larryman]

So, um...nobody just wants to "fix" WNMHGB by putting Sally Kellerman and Andrea Dromm in mini-skirts, then....?

Well, I'm all for that! The more mini-skirts, the better. But not on the men. And not on the Asimo robots!

 

[larryman]

??? But we already have a long history of Star Trek before Star Trek - and I'm not talking about the NX-01 Enterprise bullshit - one doesn't need to rewrite it, only to put something in there, that requires another heavy rewrite..

I thought rewrites was what this thread was all about?!

Well, as I said... there is the 'alternate trek universe' concept available. As Spock said in "The Tholian Web" episode: "We exist in a universe which coexists with a multitude of others in the same physical space." That would not interfere with any established canon - just as the back-history of the Mirror universe does not interfere with the back-history of non-Mirror universe. Now if a 'new' Star Trek universe was created and called the 'Forbidden Universe'... anything can happen in that universe, and not impact on established Trek history. The Star Trek I desire (including C-57's and robots) only requires a 'hook' to be found (or introduced) in any ST:TOS episode, to introduce that new Forbidden Planet-Star Trek universe. The hook that introduced the 'Mirror' universe was a transporter malfunction. I would not think another measly 'hook' to established canon would be too much interference to it, for canon fans - especially after it had already been done before (Mirror Universe), by Rodenberry, and in accepted canon history.

Seriously, Forbidden Planet, however good it was, is HEAVILY filled with 50s sensibilities.

True. It needs to be updated to a sequel era. From C-57-D of the 1956, to C-57-G of 1966 and ST:TOS sensibilities.

Indeed, in most cases when C-57-D pops up in fanfiction; often in crossovers, they treat Forbidden Planet as the product of an alternate timeline where the South of America won the Civil War, and subsequent wars and world wars made racial segregation a continuing human theme, and in the time of the C-57-D races have their own planets - and their own ships. (With the exception perhpas, of cultures who refused to go with racial segregation even after losing a war about it, and having left Earth behind to create a racially mixed planet here and there, where the rest of the planets look upon with disdain.).

I never heard of the fanfiction you mentioned. The civil war and racial segregation themes do not sound desireable to me. The only occurance of the C-57-D outside of Forbidden Planet I am familiar with, is it's appearances in old Twilight Zone TV series episodes. And those were un-related to the Forbidden Planet movie.

I find the back history of TOS, and later Star Treks (minus Enterprise) far more compelling than shoe-horning C-57-D ships in there.

Ok... I'll try to shoe-horn in a 'Forbidden Universe' then - when I can think up a good plot 'hook' to TOS canon, to introduce it.