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Let's cut bits off of babies, yes?

Deranged Nasat

Deranged Nasat

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Apologies, people. This is a moan thread, not one of the "fun" threads. More than that, actually, it's a "my gods, what is wrong with people?" thread. So sorry.

I found some...interesting...quotes about circumcision of the penis. Here's one from an adult - 25 years old - who had the procedure using local anaesthetic:

"They told me there would be no pain ... a tremendous flash of blinding white pain surged through my entire body ... I thought I had been electrocuted and was dead ... The pain was the worst I have ever had ... I cannot imagine any pain possibly being worse".

So, this is an adult, with anaesthetic, talking. Now, as we all know, certain cultures (Jews and Americans) regularly lop of foreskins of infant boys as a matter of at least unofficial policy. Usually, there is no anaesthetic used. And infants are supposedly more sensitive to pain than adults.

Some quotes from the medical establishment:

"The pain of [infant] circumcision is not a debatable question; it is a fact." [/SIZE]("Circumcision: Ritual Surgery or Surgical Ritual?," by Edward Wallerstein, Medicine and Law, Springer-Verlag, 1983)

"[Circumcision] is a stressful and painful event ... with ... changes in heart rate, respiratory rate, transcutaneous pO2, adrenal cortical hormone secretions, sleep patterns, and behavioral patterns during and/or following circumcision. Indeed, circumcision has been recommended as a model for studying pain in the neonate, and its effects are suggested to be long lasting." (Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics, Vol. 5, No. 5, October 1984)

Some quotes from parents:

"I have never heard such screams". ("Zachary's Circumcision," by his mother, Lauren Friederich, Circumcision: The Rest of the Story)

"Jesse let out a scream we will never forget. It crescendoed up and up until his mouth hung open, face distorted, and no sound came out." (Jesse's Circumcision," by his father, M. Pickard-Ginsberg, Circumcision: The Rest of the Story)

And why is this apparently near-incomparable pain inflicted on infants? Some history I've been presented with:

"In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local suffering to allow of the practice being continued. For this purpose, if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present and probably with future advantage; the operation, too, should not be performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be associated with the habit we wish to eradicate." Athol A. W. Johnson, On An Injurious Habit Occasionally Met with in Infancy and Early Childhood, The Lancet, vol. 1 (7 April 1860): pp. 344-345.

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurious effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts." Angel Money, Treatment of Disease in Children. Philadelphia: P. Blakiston. 1887, p. 421.

"A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." John Harvey Kellogg [the breakfast cereal tycoon], Treatment for Self-Abuse and Its Effects, Plain Facts for Old and Young, Burlington, Iowa: P. Segner & Co. 1888, p. 295.

"Measures more radical than circumcision would, if public opinion permitted their adoption, be a true kindness to many patients of both sexes." Jonathan Hutchinson, On Circumcision as Preventive of Masturbation, Archives of Surgery, vol. 2 (1891): pp. 267-268.

"Clarence B. was addicted to the secret vise practiced among boys. I performed an orificial operation, consisting of circumcision ... He needed the rightful punishment of cutting pains after his illicit pleasures." N. Bergman, Report of a Few Cases of Circumcision, Journal of Orificial Surgery, vol. 7 (1898): pp. 249-251.

So.


I would very much like an explanation for this, people - especially if you're American or Jewish. :vulcan:

Is torturing baby boys as a pre-emptive punishment for natural sexuality somehow acceptable? Why has there not been a concerted effort to stamp out this practice?
 
If the dude suffered pain under local anesthesia, the first thing that's obviously wrong here is that the anesthetic failed. And that's got nothing to do with the pros or cons of the specific procedure - I'm not gonna get bent out of shape about whether having a root canal - or dental veneers, to use an elective procedure as an example - is a good idea on the basis of whether someone somewhere once fucked up the novocain.

As to the merits of the procedure itself - I've no strong opinion; as an American male born in hospital in the 1950s mine was done at a time that I do not recall, presumably shortly after birth. It's not and never has been an issue for me, go figure.
 
Dennis said:
If the dude suffered pain under local anesthesia, the first thing that's obviously wrong here is that the anesthetic failed. And that's got nothing to do with the pros or cons of the specific procedure - I'm not gonna get bent out of shape about whether having a root canal is a good idea on the basis of whether someone somewhere once fucked up the novacaine.
Click to expand...

The infants are not placed on anasthetic, and thus feel that pain - did you even read the post, yet alone explore the link I gave?
 
I believe that in my state only about 1.5% of boys are being circumcised. This is because a) public hospitals in Australia won't perform non-therapeutic circumcision b) private hospitals in Tasmania won't do it either and c) we don't have any circumcision clinics here.

This means that to get a boy circumcised Tasmanian parents have to go to Melbourne and luckily few feel strongly enough about circumcision to warrant going to this expense.

There is also a possibility that anyone performing such an operation could be charged with child abuse under existing Tasmanian laws though this has never been tested in Tasmanian courts but I believe that this possibility is the main reason private hospitals stopped the practice.

Edited to add - I meant to say that 1.5% of boys that are born in Tasmania have non-therapeutic circumcision. On top of that you would have boys who have therapeutic circumcision but i can find no figures for the number of boys having those.
 
Miss Chicken said:
I believe that in my state only about 1.5% of boys are being circumcised. This is because a) public hospitals in Australia won't perform non-therapeutic circumcision b) private hospitals in Tasmania won't do it either and c) we don't have any circumcision clinics here.

This means that to get a boy circumcised Tasmanian parents have to go to Melbourne and luckily few feel strongly enough about circumcision to warrant going to this expense.

There is also a possibility that anyone performing such an operation could be charged with child abuse under existing Tasmanian laws though this has never been tested in Tasmanian courts but I believe that this possibility is the main reason private hospitals stopped the practice.
Click to expand...

Of course - most of our cultures recognize that genital mutilation is, to put it very mildly, wrong. Sadly, a few cultures still don't get it, and the Americans and Jews are among those who still practice it widely.
 
I'm glad I'm circumcised. My dad had it done to me, not for religious reasons (we're Lutheran), but for the medical and cleanliness benefits. And he's a doctor, so he would know.

I mean, I can keep myself clean just fine, but every little bit helps. (Any of you Red Dwarf fans care to guess where the word 'smeg' came from?) This happened to me 40 years ago, so I figure it's not worth it to complain now. Besides, I can't even remember the pain, so what the hell do I care? It's not like I can't pee or fuck. My junk is completely healthy and functional, and any woman who complains about it just because I'm circumcised is quite frankly not worth my time.
 
Deranged Nasat said:
The infants are not placed on anasthetic, and thus feel that pain
Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it. As I said, I had the procedure performed on me and have no memory of it - but then, I hear that childbirth is no day at the beach for mother or infant, so I may have had a hell of a day.

I certainly have no sense of being harmed or my health damaged in any way; everything works fine, thanks.

OTOH, if you're just looking to see what happens when you call Americans and Jews ignorant, carry on. :cool:
 
I don't have a son, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't go through with this. I mean, how about I just drive a nail through his hand while I'm at it? That'd be fun too! (And he wouldn't remember it later, so I see no reason not to do it.)
 
^ It is probably not what I would call objective, so I will trust the word of my doctor and parents over a third party, thank you very much. ;)

Besides, I get just a bit skittish about any site with the words 'sexually' and 'mutilated' in it, let alone when the word 'child' is involved...hey, is that Chris Hansen hiding behind a tree? :lol:
 
I was asking too much, obviously.

But it would be nice if you would just bother to spend a bit of time reading through it, and these "health benefits" ideas might end up being questioned.
 
Nobody *enjoys* causing pain to infants, but one cannot simply discard all medical procedures just because they happen to hurt. The benefits of vaccinations, for example, are obvious and well documented. Yet they also hurt. But we do them anyway.

Not all pain is harm.

Deranged Nasat said:
these "health benefits" ideas might end up being questioned.
Click to expand...

I am still not convinced they need to be.
 
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