Doesn't matter; it was good for stories. Drama, you know?
Xander was a self-absorbed, self-pitying kid who at best half-grew up. A boring wiseacre.
Least favorite Buffy characters
- Thread starter TremblingBluStar
- Start date
Doesn't matter; it was good for stories. Drama, you know?
Xander was a self-absorbed, self-pitying kid who at best half-grew up. A boring wiseacre.
I never said your dislike was unjustified - just vastly overinflated for what is, in the end, a fictional character. Also, anger towards a fictional character should not carry over to the writers or producers - as if putting something on the boob tube has caused you physical or mental anguish in some way.
I don't personally know how popular Spike was. I liked him. Most of the people I know who enjoy Buffy liked him. That's all I know. As for ratings, they could have declined with or without Spike - so you can't realistically blame him for that.
And as for why he was made a major character, has it ever occurred to you that maybe James Marsters just got along better with the rest of the crew than certain other actors? From what I've seen of him in interviews, he was enthusiastic, outgoing, and funny! Shame on the producers of Buffy for wanting to have someone like that around!
I really Hated buffy's mum i was so glad that they got rid of her.
You know, I liked Anya a lot too, even if she was 'K-Mart Cordelia.' Anya was somehow more abrasive and yet more charming.
I actually think the episode in which Joyce died was brilliantly done. Probably another example of the show not being able to decide if it was satire or existential drama, but still.
And, not to dip my toes too far into the Spike swimming pool, but do you suppose that the soul he got in Season Seven was his 'original' soul, or a new one for the new personality created after he became a vampire? I always assumed with Angel, he got the Liam soul back, so wouldn't Spike get the William soul back? And wouldn't the William soul then be tortured with Spike's misdeeds as the Liam soul appeared to be by Angel/Angelus's? Or am I totally off-base?
I personally thought that what was happening at the end of season six/beginning of season seven was going to decastrate Spike and make him a new Master or something instead of give him a soul. To me, getting a soul was the more predictable choice.
I'm only now watching season one, and no, I don't care for Xander.
So from what you have been saying here, and have been saying over the years I can only assume you have some issue with the fact that Spike was a guy who had real male sexuality and not some eunuch who would supplicate and worry about how his every action affects Buffy's feelings - sort of like Angel. :LOL:
Sorry, but most guys are motivated by the desire to either have sex, or be a companion to a woman. I'm willing to concede that Spike's actions were at least in part his way of getting to be with Buffy, but whether there were other motivations neither you nor I can say.
I would say it was William's original soul, but like Angel he retained the memories of Spike's actions as an evil vampire. As for 3D's claim that Spike's personality didn't change after being ensouled, it was established on the show that a vampire's personality is at least in part based on the host.
I think also that it was based on who they were at that exact moment, ala Dru's insanity. Remember, Liam was an irresponsible pleasure-seeker, and Angelus was that magnified and twisted. William (which, as most prolly know, is the same name in English) had likely thought a lot of things through, maybe too many for his own happiness. It was thinking about the ever-regenerating line of Slayers that led him on the road to--well, at least a different life than most other vamps. Spike could deal with Joyce and even like her without a soul and without killing her. Angelus fancied himself an artist, but the Joker's comment to Carnage in an Xover comes to mind. One victim seen in the First's mind-game complained of a scenario almost exactly like Giles and Jenny Calendar. Spike wasn't always subtle, but he knew how to be. When he was re-souled, by his own choice, he knew what pain might face him. He was still both William and Spike in one. Liam awoke suddenly to find a huge trail of blood starting with his own family, like the drunk he once was coming off the worst bender ever and only then realizing what he had done. Spike/William knew it all along.
Now, those facts contain about a hundred qualifiers apiece, but it shows that the two souled vamps came at this thing from radically different directions.
Now, those facts contain about a hundred qualifiers apiece, but it shows that the two souled vamps came at this thing from radically different directions.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Except that Xander is the only one who is capable of keeping a job, not to mention a full on career as he went from a simple construction worker to a guy in a suit driving around in an expensive car in just a few years; proving that he's actually the only one that FULLY grew up, while the rest floundered about.
Ah, I see. So a guy who attempts to rape a woman - after mentally and sexually abusing her I might add - and then comes back to get more; is just a normal guy with normal male sexuality that doesn't worry about how his actions affect the woman he supposedly loves, continuing the mental abuse full of lies?
And a man who actually cares about the woman he loves is a eunuch?
Well, if that is true, I'd say line up all those normal men with normal male sexuality - and kill them all. Boy, would the world be a better place after that.
Yes, and the show also established - over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again - that the personality of the person and the vampire that takes over the person's corpse, are like NIGHT and DAY. They change instantly, right down to the mannerisms. You see, based upon, does not equal the same - as I've said and explained before; the vampire demon has a personality that is a all-good twisted into evil caricature of the person that once inhabited the flesh; a pure evil reflection of the person. Putting thus a soul inside this body; and this soul being the person he was before the demon took over the corpse, would be the person before he died; vastly different from the vampire that was in control before.
If Spike and Soul!Spike are no different, that leads us to only 3 options:
1. Soul was indeed blank, a new useless piece of nothing that did nothing; Spike the demon is still fully in control.
2. Soul is William, but his soul got trapped underneath the demon, instead of like with Angel the demon being trapped underneath the soul. Spike, the pure evil, would still be fully in control, and the soul has no influence, or at least no more influence than the demon has on Angel.
3. Soul and demon have no differences at all. The result being that William was every bit as disgustingly pure evil than the demon ever was.
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Not what I said. I was replying to your assertion that Spike did heroic things to get into Buffy's pants. Not the same as raping and molesting her.
Didn't say that either. Angel didn't do much of anything for Buffy other than serve her needs, sitting around looking pretty and making sure she is always okay. You never got the impression he had needs of his own, other than serving her.
It seemed like Angel only showed up to bear bad news at first, and then slinked back into the shadows. 
I was contemplating the dislike of the Buffy character. I can't help but think perhaps we were never really meant to like her (being a beautiful, superpowered cheerleader and all, she's a natural target of jealousy) and that's why she was initially surrounded by ordinary folks who might help ground her?
I was contemplating the dislike of the Buffy character. I can't help but think perhaps we were never really meant to like her (being a beautiful, superpowered cheerleader and all, she's a natural target of jealousy) and that's why she was initially surrounded by ordinary folks who might help ground her?
Xander
Dawn
Riley
Dawn
Riley
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Yeah, you see, there's this whole little thing about you only saying that Spike didn't care about Buffy's needs and feelings - while getting in her panties by the way - that doesn't exactly equal commenting on heroic deeds.
Yeah, you see you actually did. You claimed that normal men with normal sexuality don't care about the woman they're banging's feelings and needs, you wrote that down exactly, then claimed the rest are eunuchs, thus that those that DO care about the women's feelings and needs are eunuchs. Normal old caring for people makes you a eunuch.
^That's what you wrote down.
If you didn't mean to write that down, you need to start rereading what you wrote from now on, and apply your reason to find out what it actually means - thus you will be able to see what someone else entirely who is not privy to your internal monologue reads when he reads your writing.
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Tara. The problem was that they wanted to make Willow the dominant one in the relationship. That meant that they constantly had to make Tara meeker than the show's meekest character!
Kennedy. She just smells annoying from the get-go. (Kinda like Byron from Babylon 5. I hated him even though I'd only seen him in one or two scenes.)
Spike when they tried to make him a serious, "tragic" "hero" in Seasons 5-7. I liked Spike when he was a villain in Seasons 2-4 or as impotent comic relief in Season 4 & Angel Season 5. But whenever he started to hijack the show from Buffy, Xander, & Willow, it sucked. He never worked as such a strong focal point.
Dawn. Although, I'd say she didn't annoy me so much. What annoyed me was that the other characters spent so much time & energy trying to shield her from inevitable truths that she was going to have to face at some point. Her mother had a life threatening brain illness. You don't need to rub her face in it but why expend so much effort trying to pretend that it's not happening at all? (I wonder how much of this had to do with the character originally supposed to be much younger than how they eventually cast it. A 9 year old Dawn might merit such efforts. But I don't think a 15 year old is nearly so fragile.)
Super-bitch Buffy in Seasons 6-7. (I wasn't crazy about her in Seasons 3-5 either.) Too bad too because she was probably my favorite in Seasons 1-2. She brought a lot of humanity to the show. But eventually she just became selfish and seemed to only care about how others were treating her, not vice versa. "The Slayer" took over. It may have been a deliberate character arc but it certainly wasn't fun to watch.
Warren & Caleb. They overplayed the misogynist angle to such a severe degree that I suspect the writers of misandrist tendencies.
UNDERRATED CHARACTERS
Connor used to bother me a lot. But his scene in the church in "Peace Out" really turned the character around for me. He's still not a favorite but I at least got a better handle on where he was coming from. Also, he doesn't seem to dominate Season 4 quite as much on 2nd viewing. It got to the point where I was actually glad to see him in "Origins" & "Not Fade Away."
I think Riley gets a bum rap. I thought his excessive "normality" brought a unique voice to the cast. (Certainly more unique than redundant Tara or the underdeveloped Dawn.) But then, I was never really sold on the Buffy/Angel romance either, so I didn't see Buffy/Riley as so sacreligious. (Although, honestly, I'm a Buffy/Xander 'shipper.
)
I sometimes wonder how that whole situation would have gone down if Cordelia had been around at the time rather than on vacation with Groo? That would have at least given Wesley someone he was comfortable in confiding in. Clearly, he couldn't tell Angel about the prophecy since it was about him. Wesley & Lorne had never been that close. And the whole Gunn/Fred relationship had completely changed Wesley's relationship with both of them. I can relate. (Although, I was younger when I went through that kind of shit. One would hope that Wesley would be a little more mature.) Still...
Not exactly. I'd say that that was really her that we saw up in the big glowy place in "Deep Down," "Ground State," & "The House Always Wins."
Kennedy. She just smells annoying from the get-go. (Kinda like Byron from Babylon 5. I hated him even though I'd only seen him in one or two scenes.)
Spike when they tried to make him a serious, "tragic" "hero" in Seasons 5-7. I liked Spike when he was a villain in Seasons 2-4 or as impotent comic relief in Season 4 & Angel Season 5. But whenever he started to hijack the show from Buffy, Xander, & Willow, it sucked. He never worked as such a strong focal point.
Dawn. Although, I'd say she didn't annoy me so much. What annoyed me was that the other characters spent so much time & energy trying to shield her from inevitable truths that she was going to have to face at some point. Her mother had a life threatening brain illness. You don't need to rub her face in it but why expend so much effort trying to pretend that it's not happening at all? (I wonder how much of this had to do with the character originally supposed to be much younger than how they eventually cast it. A 9 year old Dawn might merit such efforts. But I don't think a 15 year old is nearly so fragile.)
Super-bitch Buffy in Seasons 6-7. (I wasn't crazy about her in Seasons 3-5 either.) Too bad too because she was probably my favorite in Seasons 1-2. She brought a lot of humanity to the show. But eventually she just became selfish and seemed to only care about how others were treating her, not vice versa. "The Slayer" took over. It may have been a deliberate character arc but it certainly wasn't fun to watch.
Warren & Caleb. They overplayed the misogynist angle to such a severe degree that I suspect the writers of misandrist tendencies.
UNDERRATED CHARACTERS
Connor used to bother me a lot. But his scene in the church in "Peace Out" really turned the character around for me. He's still not a favorite but I at least got a better handle on where he was coming from. Also, he doesn't seem to dominate Season 4 quite as much on 2nd viewing. It got to the point where I was actually glad to see him in "Origins" & "Not Fade Away."
I think Riley gets a bum rap. I thought his excessive "normality" brought a unique voice to the cast. (Certainly more unique than redundant Tara or the underdeveloped Dawn.) But then, I was never really sold on the Buffy/Angel romance either, so I didn't see Buffy/Riley as so sacreligious. (Although, honestly, I'm a Buffy/Xander 'shipper.
)I sometimes wonder how that whole situation would have gone down if Cordelia had been around at the time rather than on vacation with Groo? That would have at least given Wesley someone he was comfortable in confiding in. Clearly, he couldn't tell Angel about the prophecy since it was about him. Wesley & Lorne had never been that close. And the whole Gunn/Fred relationship had completely changed Wesley's relationship with both of them. I can relate. (Although, I was younger when I went through that kind of shit. One would hope that Wesley would be a little more mature.) Still...
Not exactly. I'd say that that was really her that we saw up in the big glowy place in "Deep Down," "Ground State," & "The House Always Wins."
Wesley most certainly could tell Angel. Angel knows exactly what he's capable of when he has a moment of happiness. One minute he's watching baby Connor take his first steps, and the next he's doing unspeakable things to the kid just to piss himself off. When faced with that eventuality, Angel would probably be on board with giving up Connor to protect him. The difference is that Angel would have chosen a more trustworthy guardian than a revenge-driven sociopath.
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