Lazarus Effect

[FormerLurker]

Isn't it implied somewhere that the planet is Lazarus's homeworld? And the desolation we see is what is left of the civilization that spawned him?

I may be reading too much into this.

 

[Phoenix219]

Where is I saw nothing that even indicated he wasn't just an alternate human from an alternate Earth of some sort.

I would totally give him the broke the universe like Walter Bishop storyline if I could rewrite this episode.

 

[Phoenix219]

At the beginning of the episode The federation thinks they are being invaded from another universe so it's not a far stretch for the one Lazarus to feel like that was what happened with the other lazarus, especially if there was some type of damage because of the incursion.

But I don't see any evidence of that in what we filmed if I recall correctly.

 

[Mytran]

Where is I saw nothing that even indicated he wasn't just an alternate human from an alternate Earth of some sort.

At the beginning of the episode Spock's sensors detect a "human" and then Kirk's log describes Lazarus as a "human being". The only person who gets the more generic "humanoid" label is Lazarus' alternate self (until Kirk meets him of course)
Maybe Mad-Laz thinks he has mastered time travel but actually crossed dimensions?

 

[johnnybear]

The story is a rough ride but yes the planet below was Lazarus's home world and it must have happened so long ago like I said because the winking out phenomenon is such a new experience for the galaxy that any previous happenings would have been noted by the Federation at least and the inside of the bubbleship was called the time chamber!
JB

 

[Timo]

We shouldn't put too much weight on the statements of the Lazarus from our universe. That is, we should put zero weight on them. He's lying, plain and simple. About everything.

Likely lies (that is, a list of times his lips were moving):

- "My planet was in location X" (a lie Kirk later challenges him on, so he told this lie at one point even if we didn't hear it)
- "I chased the monster across the universe"
- "He murdered my civilization"
- "I was saved because I was inspecting a magnetic satellite" (as why tell the truth here when everything else is a lie?)
- "The planet below is my Earth"
- "I am a time traveler and so is he"

As far as I can tell, the less insane Lazarus, from the other reality that initiated the connection, never makes nor supports any of the above claims. Nor do the claims make much sense, even if we assume that the saner Lazarus is lying about some things as well. And since there is no rhyme or reason to the lies, we should assume the insane Lazarus simply lies for the sake of lying.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

We shouldn't put too much weight on the statements of the Lazarus from our universe. That is, we should put zero weight on them. He's lying, plain and simple. About everything.

Likely lies (that is, a list of times his lips were moving):

- "My planet was in location X" (a lie Kirk later challenges him on, so he told this lie at one point even if we didn't hear it)
- "I chased the monster across the universe"
- "He murdered my civilization"
- "I was saved because I was inspecting a magnetic satellite" (as why tell the truth here when everything else is a lie?)
- "The planet below is my Earth"
- "I am a time traveler and so is he"

As far as I can tell, the less insane Lazarus, from the other reality that initiated the connection, never makes nor supports any of the above claims. Nor do the claims make much sense, even if we assume that the saner Lazarus is lying about some things as well. And since there is no rhyme or reason to the lies, we should assume the insane Lazarus simply lies for the sake of lying.

Timo Saloniemi

(Something suddenly rocks the ship. We see a shot of a nebula along with the crew.)
KIRK: Mister Spock!
SPOCK: Incredible, Captain.
(And again.)
KIRK: What was that?
SPOCK: What my instruments read is totally unbelievable, Captain. Twice, for a split second each time, everything within range of our instruments seemed on the verge of winking out.
KIRK: I want facts, not poetry.
SPOCK: I have given you the facts, Captain. The entire magnetic field in this solar system simply blinked. The planet below, the mass of which we're measuring, attained zero gravity.

There were only two powerful "winking" events at the start of the episode, and none after that. I speculate the first one was due to the arrival of Alt-Laz's ship blinked in from another point (and time) in his universe that corresponded to the planet below. The next wink was Mad-Laz chasing him and blinking in from the equivalent point in our universe. The wink effect was so much powerful since it involved moving their ships across the universe and across time. This activity supported the notion that Mad-Laz was chasing Alt-Laz across the universe and that they were time travelers. I get the impression that both Lazs' resources were nearly exhausted, and if so, then it could explain why Alt-Laz symbolically returned to his home planet, to make his final stand. After this, all other winks were less powerful (ship corridor size) which corresponded to the Laz body switching.

Aside for the little white lie of the first statement, all the other statements could be true.

 

[Timo]

I guess this is possible. I mean, yeah, the ships supposedly arrived somehow, from somewhere, as the location where we meet them is not exactly a starport or a lab in either universe. And arriving via time rather than space would make it plausible that the planet below was, or will be, home to both Lazari in their respective realities. (The likelier scenario then is that the two clowns are operating in the deep past of their world, not the future, or else the meticulous studies of Spock would reveal the ruins, even after tens or perhaps hundreds of millennia.)

But having both time travel and space travel seems superfluous (especially on top of dimension travel!), considering the former could be used to undo atrocities or at least to first-guess the opponent and cut the spatial chase short . OTOH we're supposed to think nobody murdered anybody yet, meaning the planet isn't the site of a massacre no matter what, and could thus be an irrelevant little dustball instead. A white lie to go with the big pitch-black one doesn't sound likely anyway (especially as it serves no purpose in either hiding or supporting the black one): the latter sort of suggests instead that the mad-Laz is incapable of making a true statement.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dupersuper]

If, by "right there", you mean
down the hallway,
passed the doors,
on the other side of the Enterprise security guards,
with the closest Eminarans being their guards,
and the remaining Councilmen on the far side of them,
then, I suppose...but it seems a bit of a stretch that Kirk is doing performance art for those guys way in the back.
https://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x23hd/atasteofarmageddonhd879.jpg

As Higgins pointed out to Magnum when he was trying to stoke Magnums late seasons suspicions that Higgins was Robin Masters in disguise - after Magnum pointed out that he had heard Higgins talking to Masters on the phone when he was sure Higgins didn't know he was there - "Having worked in military intelligence yourself, Magnum, you're surely aware that one of the keys to keeping up a deception is not to let on even when you're sure you're alone." (paraphrasing).

 

[BK613]

As Higgins pointed out to Magnum when he was trying to stoke Magnums late seasons suspicions that Higgins was Robin Masters in disguise - after Magnum pointing out that he had heard Higgins talking to Masters on the phone when he was sure Higgins didn't know he was there - "Having worked in military intelligence yourself, Magnum, you're surely aware that one of the keys to keeping up a deception is not to let on even when you're sure you're alone." (paraphrasing).

 

[johnnybear]

The winking out effect was felt all over the entire galaxy according to Commodore Barstow so if they had been swopping places every now and then for the last century or so then the galaxy, let alone the universe would have been very used to the phenomenon by the episode! But it wasn't so that means that their crusade against each other must have originally taken place in another galaxy or universe (but that negates the theory) or even in another time before sentient beings walked their earths as such!
JB

 

[Timo]

...Or, more probably, after the current timeframe. There could have been any number of winking effects in the future of or heroes, and a civilization on the planet below - but currently they don't observe any ruins down there.

If the Lazari are time travelers, then they would wish to outmaneuver each other by going ever farther into the past, to preempt the actions of the other! And like Henoch sez, this might be as far as they got before running out of dilithium.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Maybe the surface of the planet was totally vapourised by the Lazarus's and any ruins left there, were and might have been lost by the sand storms over the next few million years!
JB

 

[FormerLurker]

https://www.dltk-kids.com/poems/shelley/ozymandias/

 

[alchemist]

FWIW, it's implied in the first draft that Mad-Laz's ship (a redress of the Galileo, but that's another discussion) "crashes" on the planet and becomes inoperable. When Spock announces that he used lithium crystals to pinpoint the source of radiation on the planet, Mad-Laz suddenly realizes that he has a way of using them to make his ship operational again, at least a threshold on it, so that he can travel to Alt-Laz. Unfortunately, Mad-Laz doesn't quite know how to use the lithium crystals to do this, so he cozies up to Charlene Masters since it's her specialty. Later, she helps him on the planet when he builds a new threshold.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

If they both end up in that valve fighting and not just dying, then it’s effectively stoppered forever, right? No other pair can set off the “door charges”? Or something like that?

 

[Timo]

Who knows? Kirk only speculates, without any known basis, that the two would have their hands around the opponent's throat forever and then some. But if the corridor sorta freezes them forever in that pose, this is the effect we get, too.

All this is supposed to achieve, as per admittedly hypervague dialogue, is that the two Lazari will never meet in circumstances that would terminate all existence. Other travelers from the respective universes might still end up shaking hands and bringing about Armageddon. But not with this corridor, if destroying one of the funny little ships seals off the corridor. And apparently the one Lazarus was a rare supergenius who invented the corridor thing - so while there might be others, those might only be born thousands or millions of years from now. (Unless Lazarus had an apprentice, that is. Or a whole government agency he was working for...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DaystromDropout]

Been watching Trek all my life. This is the best I've ever understood this ep!

Ahh nice to be among thinkers again. I was lost aboard the Discovery for a bit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Isn't it implied somewhere that the planet is Lazarus's homeworld?

I'm not aware of any such implication. As far as we know, it's just some random world where Lazarus crashed.

 

[Mytran]

I'm not aware of any such implication. As far as we know, it's just some random world where Lazarus crashed.

It's not just implied, Lazarus outright states it!

LAZARUS: My planet, my Earth, or what's left of it, is down there beneath us.​