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Late to Discovery but finally saw it

I saw nothing deconstructionist about Discovery. Every element played just like it had in other shows, from the monotonous "honor" of the Klingons and the camp of the Mirror universe, I guess we should applaud them for stealing from other franchises with the Control storyline. If anything, it just played like a Cliff Note's version of the other shows, from Ripper being a copy of the Horta from "The Devil in the Dark", complete with Spock family bolt-on realizing that it isn't evil, just misunderstood. To playing up the Federation ban on augmentation, only to ignore it when convenient. To replaying DS9's Section 31 storyline about using genocide to win a war, but to far lesser effect.

"Oh look, they eat people, they must be evil!", I guess they get some kind of repetitive kudos for getting to use that gem with both the Klingons and the Mirror universe Terrans.

I see your reductivism in your assessment (such as insisting to describe the lead character in the series as a "Spock family bolt-on", but I don't see the "fanservice" you claim is there. How is any of this presented in such a way that it achieves the level of "fanservice", something which requires these to provide deliberate and outsized pleasure? I myself see in the deliberate choices of the producers as well as the reactions of the "fans", that "fanservice" was the last thing on everyone's minds. Using similar plot devices for alternative purposes which provokes the audience instead of reassuring and reinforcing their sentiments, IMO, is not any definition of "fanservice" I've ever heard of but one you've decided to invent for you personally.

As for comparing Ripper to the Horta, they are only comparable in the most reductive viewpoint. There are no ongoing consquences to saving the Horta in TOS, and even the results of saving the Horta in Devil in the Dark has the exact opposite initial effect to letting Ripper go in DISCO as saving the Horta results in the Horta and her children serving to benefit the miners and the Federation whereas letting Ripper go and Lorcas subsequent refusal to make use of the species puts a desperate Federation in a more difficult situation than prior to the freeing of Ripper. Plus the freeing of Ripper does serve to have a psychological effect on Burnham going forwards given her identification with the creature. Spock has no such identification with the Horta and him mindmelding with the Horta and subsequent saving of the species has no such ongoing effect on his psyche.

Reductivism may be satisfying in certain ways, but its a problem when making an argument comparing the complex with the simplistic as well as the claim that one plot device always has to be equal across the board, because plot devices are only tools, its how they are used that gives them meaning.

Take your, "Oh look they eat people, they must be evil." The eating of people is a plot device. It does not automatically demonstrate evil, because context is necessary to answer that question. Knee jerk reductivism is an avoidance of context and therefore an impediment when seeking to understand the point the writers are trying to make than anything else.
 
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I never understood why people had a problem with that. It wasn't even canabalism as they were eating a different species.

Plenty examples of stranded people being forced to eat the dead in our recent history, rather than starve to death.
Because people do not like preconceived notions being challenged and they don't like thinking about certain aspects of human nature.
 
monotonous "honor" of the Klingons
Fortunately, the Klingons weren't reduced to that cliché (which made up 95% of Klingon identity in the Berman era), the addition of a striving to keep their culture intact and uncorrupted and for genetic purity made them far more interesting and believable as a threat.
I guess we should applaud them for stealing from other franchises with the Control storyline.
Having an AI trying to control/destroy its masters as part of the storyline counts as stealing? By that measure, featuring an interstellar spaceship or life on other planets would count too, right?
To playing up the Federation ban on augmentation, only to ignore it when convenient.
Oh, like playing up the Prime Directive, only to ignore / deliberately break it when convenient? Over and over and over again? Unpossible!
To replaying DS9's Section 31 storyline about using genocide to win a war, but to far lesser effect.
Mind suggesting an alternative to that while being in the midst of losing a war on all fronts against a merciless enemy? Knowing that losing the war would mean subjugation of your people, exploitation of your resources, loss of your culture (the cultures of all the member worlds!) at best, and being genocided yourself at worst? Considering genocide of the Klingons is even more justified (if such an act were justifiable) than it was with the Founders in my eyes, now that I think about it.

Some people need to bury reeeealy deep to find what they're looking for, but if they search hard enough they are certain to find it. I see the shovels and picks are red hot in some parts of the fandom.
 
I never understood why people had a problem with that. It wasn't even canabalism as they were eating a different species.

Plenty examples of stranded people being forced to eat the dead in our recent history, rather than starve to death.

And besides, Berman-era Trek had plenty of references to Klingons eating their enemies' hearts or livers, or whatnot. Did fans not think that a savage alien warrior species would actually, literally do this? Were those references taken to be metaphorical or something?

Kor
 
Just saw the first episode cliffhanger and enjoyed it. Strong pilot. Interested in seeing where it goes.

in fact, this could be the strongest pilot for a new Star Trek show with new characters. (It doesn’t top The Cage IMO).
I thought Vulcan Hello/Binary Stars were great. Seeing Capt Georgia in action interacting and leading her crew was awesome to behold.

The two pilots also set up the very important relationship between Burnham and Saru.

Showing Burnham going through the events that would reshape her life instead of covering them through dialogue and flashbacks, was exactly what should have been done. How often have we said, show us, don’t tell us?

Definitely a stronger opening than TNG, VOY, and ENT (which I eventually grew to love).
 
And besides, Berman-era Trek had plenty of references to Klingons eating their enemies' hearts or livers, or whatnot. Did fans not think that a savage alien warrior species would actually, literally do this? Were those references taken to be metaphorical or something?

Kor

Being bothered by this is just a cultural prejudice anyway. It's not like the defeated enemy is using that heart or liver anymore, right?
 
Are we really doing a "Why I don't like DISC thread?"

First let me say, if you like DISC....GREAT! I don't. So i don't watch. Hate-watching and then making YT videos about a show you say you hate is toxic beyond measure. So...

The time period. Whyyyyyy?? PIC works cause we're familiar with the characters and invested in them and their time period. To place an entire new crew before TOS, but make everything look wayyyy more advanced? Why? Things should be even MORE frontiery then the first eps of TOS were. They should have made it post ST VI.

We spent ages not knowing who the bridge crew were. Their names, their stories, what they even do.

Ok, so you set up all these women in prominent positions. Yay empowerment....and then you make them into weepy messes. And the pathos is mostly unearned because we spent forever not knowing who these people were.

The battles and sound fx are straight out of Abramsverse.....boooooooooo. No narrative cohesion. Way too much going on. Sound fx are way too soft and don't carry any umph. Just vipvipvipvivpvipvivp. If its not asteroids cluttering the screen its rocks or its drones and vipvipvipvivpvivpvipv.

There are plot holes and then there are plot singularities,
The Red Angel was Burnhams...mom?? Who dat??
Control is beaten why are you still going to the future?
The entire deal with the lodged photon torpedo.
Drones, tons of shuttlecraft, oh loooook theres Sarus sister showing up cause she can suddenly fly a ship.
Mirror Space Hitler isnt Hitler....she's Hitler if he had The Spear of Destiny and Arc of the Covenant. She's literally the most dangerous person in the galax....oh she's gone. Oh well. I'm sure it'll be ok.

Finally much of the dialogue is cringy. Important sounding rhetoric that fails under examination. "Yum"

But again. If you like the show, great!!
 
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The time period. Whyyyyyy??
Because it is largely unexplored.
We spent ages not knowing who the bridge crew were. Their names, their stories, what they even do.
The Bridge crew were not the key part of the story. They saw more development as the story required it. O'Brien started as a helmsman in TNG season 1. Did he get character development in that Season?
The Red Angel was Burnhams...mom?? Who dat??
A Section 31 operative.
Control is beaten why are you still going to the future?
To prevent Sphere knowledge from continuing to be a threat.
The entire deal with the lodged photon torpedo.
That's fail.

Important sounding rhetoric that fails under examination. "Yum"
"Yum" is terrible dialog, but it is neither important, nor rhetorical in its statement. So...?
 
I think both seasons start fairly strongly, then get weaker and more incomprehensible as the season goes on.

I don't really like it.
 
I finally got a chance to catch up on the existing seasons, and it's kind of a mixed bag. There are aspects of Discovery I really like, and others I take a degree of issue with. I find a lot of the aesthetics interesting, in that I like some of the Federation ship designs and the blue uniforms (albeit I don't like the side braid as much, as I find it distracting, and it would be nice if we knew what levels gold and silver represent). Most of the alien design is nice too, with the exception of the Klingons (whom I personally call Klingorcs in S1 :D). I have to say I was rather impressed with the DISC version of Harry Mudd.

That being said, I don't really feel like a lot of the aesthetics fit in with the timeline for the series. I don't think the series has to slavishly copy elements of TOS too closely, but it doesn't really seem like some elements fit the normal timeline. Some elements of technology seem way too advanced, and seem to be included more as a desire to look cool or because they've been seen in other series, with different contexts. It doesn't help that at times we see mixed technologies, meaning that S31 appears to have fully modern, TNG+ comm badges while the normal crew use TOS style communicators.

As in example, Pike saw his apparent destiny in "Through the Valley" and McCoy laments in "The Menagerie" that, even with the best technology available then, Pike's handicapped existence was quite limited prior to Spock's mission to return him to Talos IV. His mind was fully active but basically trapped in a worthless, crippled body, and McCoy implies it would be impossible to transfer it or otherwise give him a full life again. Even if the Talosians lacked the technology to heal him physically, they could at least provide him with the illusion of being restored, as they did with Vina.

And yet in "Project Daedalus," it's established that Ariam is a former human (rather than a cyborg or fully robotic life form, as the previous episodes would lead one to assume) who also suffered severe trauma and was apparently "augmented" with cybernetic technology, although the episode doesn't really give a lot of detail about this. Her funeral in the following episode shows her brain inside a sort of case, implying it's perhaps her human brain in a more mechanical body. My point is, if such technology exists in DISC, why couldn't it be used for someone like Pike in the future? Why would he be more handicapped if he could be rebuilt and function more normally?

I'll admit, I find the mushroom matrix space drive thing to be a rather odd and silly choice, personally. :angel: To be fair, I do like the idea of using organic elements of technology. But I honestly don't see the logic behind it, and I don't really like it as a convenient plot device. YMMV of course. It doesn't help that DISC, like the reboot movies, uses the "hyperdrive" effect of ships warping. Instead of actually showing ships traveling to a conventional degree like we've seen in prior series, they just pop out of warp right in front of their destination like Star Wars ships. I've come to find it rather distracting at times.

I also admit that, in some ways, the S2 finale battle is a bit of a mess. I've always liked the idea of having small craft support in Trek, to a degree we don't often see, but not in the ways used. There are way too many small craft, even assuming a good chunk of them are drones, and the S31 fleet again seems way too advanced even by the standards of the series. There also seem to be continuity problems regarding the Klingons choosing to intervene, especially with Tyler's help, since "Points of Light" inferred that L'Rell was forced to make the Empire think he was dead in order to maintain her throne.
 
There also seem to be continuity problems regarding the Klingons choosing to intervene, especially with Tyler's help, since "Points of Light" inferred that L'Rell was forced to make the Empire think he was dead in order to maintain her throne.

I don't think its an insurmountable problem. Maybe Tyler beamed directly to L'Rell's bridge and the only people to know he is there are her most trusted bridge crew who are sworn to secrecy. His call on the Klingons could have been audio only and anonymous.
 
And yet in "Project Daedalus," it's established that Ariam is a former human (rather than a cyborg or fully robotic life form, as the previous episodes would lead one to assume) who also suffered severe trauma and was apparently "augmented" with cybernetic technology, although the episode doesn't really give a lot of detail about this. Her funeral in the following episode shows her brain inside a sort of case, implying it's perhaps her human brain in a more mechanical body. My point is, if such technology exists in DISC, why couldn't it be used for someone like Pike in the future?
I'm guessing it's down to the nature of the damage. Pike's was "delta radiation", which is made up and can thus damage people however the writers want. Airiam was in a shuttle crash.
It doesn't help that DISC, like the reboot movies, uses the "hyperdrive" effect of ships warping. Instead of actually showing ships traveling to a conventional degree like we've seen in prior series, they just pop out of warp right in front of their destination like Star Wars ships.
But that's what a ship dropping from faster than light speed would really look like. It was just appear once it dropped to sublight.
 
Some elements of technology seem way too advanced, and seem to be included more as a desire to look cool or because they've been seen in other series, with different contexts. It doesn't help that at times we see mixed technologies, meaning that S31 appears to have fully modern, TNG+ comm badges while the normal crew use TOS style communicators.
This doesn't bother me at all. My ability to imagine technology so far into the future is so imprecise that the differences between the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries are inconsequential, let along the decade before TOS.
 
I was late to watching Discovery too and only watched it over the Christmas / New Year holiday from college. I love Saru.
 
The entire deal with the lodged photon torpedo.

Watching that scene all I could think is why not make the whole ship out of indestructable blast door metal

As for the pilot it was really good except for the main character been let off with mutiny and starting a war.
 
Watching that scene all I could think is why not make the whole ship out of indestructable blast door metal

As for the pilot it was really good except for the main character been let off with mutiny and starting a war.
Yup, she was totally let off when she was sent on a prison ship and then Lorca basically drafted her back in to service. She was totally not court martialed at all.
 
Yup, she was totally let off when she was sent on a prison ship and then Lorca basically drafted her back in to service. She was totally not court martialed at all.

She totally got off with it after a few episodes though didn't she. No way she would be allowed back so quick I don't care how good a scientist she is or if a war was is on. It was a bad plot line and I feel maybe the writers agree as it has been subtly dropped since
 
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