Last Classic Who Story you watched

[Timewalker]

As you say, opinions differ. However, please grant that while I've seen this story at least a half-dozen times over the years and read the novelization, you never even saw it all the way through once. And it's often not until the fourth episode that some crucial story information gets revealed.

As for the science lessons - I said Leela gets them. Not the audience. The scenes where the scientific principles get explained to her are part of her character's development from the "savage" we first meet in Face of Evil to a less-savage individual who leaves the Doctor in The Invasion of Time.

You may not have noticed a well-developed society, but again, it's subjective. Most guest characters in Doctor Who stories don't inspire any fanfic or musings of what happens in their lives before/after encountering the Doctor. This story is different in that respect, at least to me.

Unless the critical information in Episode 4 is how to keep yourself from falling to sleep while watching the story, it doesn't matter to me. You're obviously more familiar with the story, but that has nothing to do with my lack of enjoyment, and my negative opinion of it.

Also, if someone is writing fanfic about these characters, they must be very bored

The science lesson thing sounds like its even more pointless. I couldn't care less if Leela learns anything, and using her as someone to "teach" just makes her an excuse to waste time, and not a real character. That is something I was worried would happen, that Leela's whole "point" would be to just be someone the Doctor could "teach". The Doctor always kind of does it, but Leela is the first one I've seen where I'm starting to feel like that's her whole reason to exist. I hope I'm wrong, because she seems like a decent companion so far.

Anyway, The Robots of Death is behind me. I'm already one episode into The Talons of Weng-Chiang, and while it's first episode was not super impressive its keeping my attention so far, and it has five more episodes to be really good (or, to be fair, really bad).

O-kay. We've agreed that opinions are subjective, so I'm not going to say you're wrong for liking a story I despise, and hope you feel the same. That said, I don't find the sandminer characters in Robots of Death boring at all. Take the information given in the episode, be observant as to body language, facial expressions, speech patterns, extrapolate, and then add some imagination. Plot your story, write it, and there you have a fanfic. I'm not saying these characters are stupendously wonderful - but I do find them interesting.

Leela's learning about science is part of her character development. She starts off as an illiterate, superstitious "kill first and ask questions later" savage, and gradually becomes more educated and civilized... up to a point. That must have been some wedding night with Andred!

 

[Captain Dago]

Watched "The Dominators" last week. I always love the Second Doctor stories as Troughton was "my" Doctor. I didn't remember seeing this on broadcast but enjoyed it very much, especially the interaction between the Doctor and Jamie. Pat Troughton and Frazer Hines really had their timing down by the time Wendy Padbury joined the cast.

 

[Sindatur]

Well I have to agree with you guys there.. However, in the context of the racism being from that time and turn of the century, would it be safe to say that it could be a commentary on the ideals and types of attitudes prevalent in that setting?? Could it be that Going for realism back then (1970s), was acceptable, whereas nowadays it would be frowned upon or with the sensitivity that is rampant these days, would it have been more prudent to have depicted that racism from the past as they did with the 10TH Doctor and what Martha jones suffered from in the Family of Blood episodes? They did their best to show racism in that episode, without being very blatant about it..which I suppose is what has to happen these days, seeing as how almost everyone is looking to play the victim, or there are just those types of people out there who are ALWAYS looking for a racist comment, and or phrase, or even "code words." I submit, if that is what one is constantly looking for, then they will always find it.

present company excluded of course.

I get what you mean...but no, it wasn't commentary. The BBC/Doctor who people was either unwilling, or somehow too cheap, to hire an asian actor to play the main asian villain. Instead, they dressed up a white guy in obvious yellow face. Most of the story doesn't even talk about racism, from a story perspective it doesn't seem to be a theme. If they had the exact same script but with an actual asian actor, Li H'Sen Chang's role wouldn't be something people would automatically point to and call racist, its the casting of the white guy in yellow face that's racist. Other stuff might be borderline, but with one casting change I think it would generally be considered a story you wouldn't need to put an asterix next to if you were listing it on a "Best of Doctor Who" list.

As for newer Doctor Who, its hard to comment. I HATE Human nature/Family of Blood, its one of my most hated Doctor Who stories, and probably the worst newer Doctor Who story. I couldn't get through a lot of it, but I guess I vaguely remember Martha being treated badly, which I suppose would be more of a commentary (I mostly just remember the story infuriating me from basically the second it started more than specifics like what Martha was doing). But, for The Talons of Weng-Chiang, the racism comes mostly from the casting, which based off the writing I'd say was not the intention of the author, or something planned. They just made a really, really bad decision.

Just curious how do feel about Khan in Space Seed. A White Spanish man playing an Indian in Brown Face? If you're supportive of it, how is that any different (Though yes, there's 10 years between the two)

 

[Captaindemotion]

^And TWOK post-dated the Who story.

 

[kirk55555]

Just curious how do feel about Khan in Space Seed. A White Spanish man playing an Indian in Brown Face? If you're supportive of it, how is that any different (Though yes, there's 10 years between the two)

He wasn't in brown face. I just compared pics of him, his skin wasn't artificially darkened to play Kahn, he looked like he normally did at that time. To be in ____ face means that someone puts on makeup to look like a different race. Montalban didn't do that, and he also spoke and acted normally, instead of putting on an accent or doing just weird stuff.. Also, Khan the character didn't have any Indian/Sikh stereotypes in the way he acted. It was a bit goofy making him technically Indian/Sikh, but he really wasn't given any racial traits. They could have said he was from a bunch of different places and not changed a line of dialog, the character's race had really nothing to do with the character except as an excuse for his name. If they had said he was spanish, and removed one line of dialog from McGivers and that stupid portrait in her quarters, it would not have changed a thing about Kahn.

It in no way compares to putting weird yellow make up on a white guy's skin and having him speak in a stupid, stereotypical asian accent. In the end, Khan was just kind of a weird naming choice, but if they hadn't named his character's race no one would realize that the character was supposed to be a different race than the actor playing him. Basically, he's a character whose race really isn't a factor outside of the fact it's mentioned. Unlike Li H'sen Chang in The Talons of Weng-Chiang, where the race was a big factor in the character, and one that probably wouldn't have been an issue if it was played by an asian actor. Its really two completely different situations.

 

[Sindatur]

Just curious how do feel about Khan in Space Seed. A White Spanish man playing an Indian in Brown Face? If you're supportive of it, how is that any different (Though yes, there's 10 years between the two)

He wasn't in brown face. I just compared pics of him, his skin wasn't artificially darkened to play Kahn, he looked like he normally did at that time. To be in ____ face means that someone puts on makeup to look like a different race. Montalban didn't do that, and he also spoke and acted normally, instead of putting on an accent or doing just weird stuff.. Also, Khan the character didn't have any Indian/Sikh stereotypes in the way he acted. It was a bit goofy making him technically Indian/Sikh, but he really wasn't given any racial traits. They could have said he was from a bunch of different places and not changed a line of dialog, the character's race had really nothing to do with the character except as an excuse for his name. If they had said he was spanish, and removed one line of dialog from McGivers and that stupid portrait in her quarters, it would not have changed a thing about Kahn.

It in no way compares to putting weird yellow make up on a white guy's skin and having him speak in a stupid, stereotypical asian accent. In the end, Khan was just kind of a weird naming choice, but if they hadn't named his character's race no one would realize that the character was supposed to be a different race than the actor playing him. Basically, he's a character whose race really isn't a factor outside of the fact it's mentioned. Unlike Li H'sen Chang in The Talons of Weng-Chiang, where the race was a big factor in the character, and one that probably wouldn't have been an issue if it was played by an asian actor. Its really two completely different situations.

You are incorrect, Montalban, was indeed put in makeup in Space Seed (Though he was lily-white in TWoK). The color of Khan's skin in Space Seed, is not a natural Human skin pigment

The reason I asked this question is because alot of people do take a different position on the two situations, and then they complain about Cumberbatch being Lily white in STiD, saying he should've been played by a Mexican, even though, the Mexicans they throw out as examples look far less Montalban then Cumberbatch does

 

[kirk55555]

Well, regardless, Montalban was still not playing the character as a Indian/Sikh stereotype, so he still beats out Doctor Who. He also gets points for his performance helping make the character iconic, and honestly it did mostly ignore any race issues. The Doctor who guy did probably as good a job as any white guy could playing the role, but in the end the Doctor who role was made with a big focus on race, as opposed to Kahn, whose race (like I've said before) wasn't an essential part of the character.

Also, Cumberbatch sucked not just because he was about the whitest guy they could get that wasn't an albino, but also because the part was written horribly and he acted nothing like the original character. Add to that the fact that there was no in universe reason that he shouldn't look like Montalban (I don't count BS plastic surgery excuses made by different writers after the fact, the movie could have at least matched Montalban's ethnicity) and that JJ Trek's Kahn was just overall a bland character, and you get Cumberbatch's failure as the character. Sure, Montalban not being the same race as the script said didn't hurt the original character, but after Montalban established Kahn, it no longer worked to stick anyone in the role, even if it had been written halfway decently.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Oh dear, don't get kirk started on JJ Trek, whatever you do! And don't mention Man of Steel either!

 

[kirk55555]

Oh dear, don't get kirk started on JJ Trek, whatever you do! And don't mention Man of Steel either!

Its not going any farther than what I posted. I responded to something he said, and I'm done with that (at least talking about the other Kahn in connection to the original). I have absolutely no desire to go into stuff like that, especially in this thread. The Man of Steel comment was stupid. I don't just randomly start ranting about unconnected things that tick me off whenever something I have a strong negative opinion of is brought up. I am capable of responding to something, then letting it go.

Back on this thread's topic, I'm one episode into The Horror of Fang Rock. Its a decent story so far, and I like the lighthouse setting.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ it was intended light-heartedly, I just use the 'post quick reply' option a lot and didn't bother with a smiley. Chill.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Watched the Reign of Terror DVD, and while the story is lovely (if an episode too long), the animation in episodes 3 & 4 are iffy, at best. But thats not what annoyed me - the break from the camera script is. The editing/pace of the first animated episode is horrendous, with many scenes ruined by the rapid succession of shots that literally dillute the point of the scene and distract from the story. Now, I'm not saying that an animated episode of DW, which I welcome over it being missing forever, HAS to stick to camera scripts. Far from it - some of the futuristic DW stories could use the ability to draw the future as it would not have been previously. However, I do think that camera scripts can give a good idea of how the lost episodes were shot like, thus it can allow for moderation there. But here, it really feels like its just random sketches thrown together in a blender.

The second animated episode fares better, but again, the animation is a bit stiff to my liking. Still, at least its not a so terribly edited.

The story was rather good, too. I liked it overall, and Hartnell really finely ends the first season with his most mischievous interpretation of his Doctor yet. It really reminded me of Pertwee at times. Great story, though a bit long.

 

[kirk55555]

I finished Horror of Fang Rock, and it was a very good story. The setting was cool, the side cast was pretty good, and Leela and The Doctor were as good as usual. It was interesting to see the enemy of the Sontarans. The weird thing though was that the Doctor said that the Rutans were "adapted to life on the surface", but their natural form is pretty awkward and slow on land. I thought the scene with Leela's eyes changing because of an explosion was goofy, but in a good way (I know why they did it, it was just a funny excuse). I also liked the scene when Leela slapped the screaming woman Overall, this was a great story. Next up is The Invisible Enemy.

 

[diankra]

Next up is The Invisible Enemy.

Never mind. It's only four episodes, so better follows. Though it does have great FX (and some bad on-set FX) and good actors (having a bad day).

 

[kirk55555]

It doesn't seem to have very positive reviews. I haven't seen it yet, but I do know it has the introduction of K-9, so that will probably be interesting. I'm willing to give it a chance, even though it has a bad reputation.

 

[diankra]

FWIW, I loved it when I was 10. But it's not a story where an adult viewing reveals new strengths.

 

[kirk55555]

The Invisible Enemy wasn't great, but I don't regret watching it. There was a lot of goofy stuff, but it had some ok moments. I also thought that K-9's debut was ok, and Leela got a few good scenes. The virus possession was kind of stupid (lightning eyes that take control of people and also make them grow fur ) but the mini clone Doctor and Leela traveling in The Doctor's head was kind of interesting. Next up is Image of the Fendahl.

 

[DWF]

The Caves Of Androzani, it's still a classic story even after 30 years, Greame Harper's first time direction, Roger Limb's music and Robert Holmes writing has held up rather well over time. And you can see more Robert Holmes' obvious love for The Phantom Of The Opera, there's sveral elements of in this one.

The Mark Of The Rani and Time And The Rani, for Katie O'Mara. I've always liked The Mark Of The Rani between Jonathan Gibb's music and great location shooting it's still a great story. Kate O'Mara was pretty sexy as well and the Rani was far more useful in the story than the Master. Time And The Rani is IMO underrated, I liked McCoy's Doctor and the visual effects but it is bit much at times.

 

[Sindatur]

The Caves Of Androzani, it's still a classic story even after 30 years, Greame Harper's first time direction, Roger Limb's music and Robert Holmes writing has held up rather well over time. And you can see more Robert Holmes' obvious love for The Phantom Of The Opera, there's sveral elements of in this one.

Yea, Caves of Androzani is Classic

The Mark Of The Rani and Time And The Rani, for Katie O'Mara. I've always liked The Mark Of The Rani between Jonathan Gibb's music and great location shooting it's still a great story. Kate O'Mara was pretty sexy as well and the Rani was far more useful in the story than the Master. Time And The Rani is IMO underrated, I liked McCoy's Doctor and the visual effects but it is bit much at times.

I agree. I really like Mark of The Rani. And, Time and The Rani, I enjoy the basic story, it's just The whole two Mels <<<SHUDDER>>> part of the story that drops it's Stock Price, IMHO.

The Invisible Enemy wasn't great, but I don't regret watching it. There was a lot of goofy stuff, but it had some ok moments. I also thought that K-9's debut was ok, and Leela got a few good scenes. The virus possession was kind of stupid (lightning eyes that take control of people and also make them grow fur ) but the mini clone Doctor and Leela traveling in The Doctor's head was kind of interesting. Next up is Image of the Fendahl.

The invisible Enemy is the one I mentioned that is pretty widely panned in Fandom. Did you find yourself feeling hungry for (or being turned off of) Prawns?

There are some detractors for each of Leela's 4 remaining Serials, But, I don't think any has a majority hate in Fandom, certainly I enjoy the rest (Although abrupt, I think her end Arc is pretty cool, and I love the Six Series of Romana/Leela Audios [Though I recall you don't enjoy Gallifreyan Politics, so, probably not right for you])

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

For all intents and purposes, Leela really has been better explored and developed in the audios than in the show. Its too bad the Holmes team didn't stay on-board for her first full-fledged season to really make her work.

But at least we have BF, right?

 

[NightJim]

My bit on The Aztecs is now up, where I argue that Classic Doctor and romance aren't as far apart as some would have us believe.

http://t.co/bR9EWzUDp7

Speaking of Big Finish, I'm in talks with a magazine site to start publishing my review/thoughts on their Eighth Doctor's adventures.