Last Classic Who Story you watched

[jaime]

I've not seen it in years, but one of my issues with Mark of the Rani has always been that the Master has no place in it at all, and indeed having him there took away from the Rani's spotlight, especially when O'Mara was clearly the most memorable new villain in the Colin Baker era (though the Valeyard is a tie, I guess).

Handing over the torch, letting Ainley know they have a new backup plan for when he’s unavailable or unwilling. Like sticking Roger Moore’s potential replacement in some of his films in bit parts…

 

[Christopher]

As I said, there is no correlation between quality and maturity. Those are two different conversations. There are plenty of brilliant children's books and plenty of terrible adult books. I am absolutely not saying the Time and the Rani novelization was bad because it was for children. I'm saying it was bad because its writers approached the idea of a children's book badly, as opposed to other writers who respected the intelligence and taste of the children they wrote for. Or at least that was my impression.

 

[jaime]

As I said, there is no correlation between quality and maturity. Those are two different conversations. There are plenty of brilliant children's books and plenty of terrible adult books. I am absolutely not saying the Time and the Rani novelization was bad because it was for children. I'm saying it was bad because its writers approached the idea of a children's book badly, as opposed to other writers who respected the intelligence and taste of the children they wrote for. Or at least that was my impression.

Totally. I’m agreeing, and pointing out that it was an anomaly in terms of the range at the time. I think the print was even larger in it (I could check, it’s about three feet away from me, but I can’t be arsed xD) if I recall. Even as a then-8-or-9 year old it was a bit naff.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Seeing as DIT has been discussed, here is a little curiosity from the shows trailer outtakes.

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[Qonundrum]

I just watched The Mark of the Rani (for the first time in many years) and truthfully, I enjoyed it far more than I recalled.

Sure, it has plenty of 80s cheese to it

Each decade's got its own gouda and limburger going on.

, but it also has a solid story with a wonderfully atmospheric setting of the coal mine.

And coal has virtually nothing to do with the story, save for a historical figure as an incidental character.

The Sixth Doctor is a delight in this story, who is not too arrogant and is often tempered by Peri with a few great quips throughout the story.

People whine about Pip and Jane, but they knew how to write for the then-latest pairing.

Plus, Peri actually has a decent role isn't too much of a damsel in distress, and even gets the chance to use her botany skills.

The Rani still outwits her with the old "excuse me while I cough" routine, but that's still more imaginative than the "look over there" routine, as well as education on that icky STEMmy stuff like how some people can be adverse to damp environments, et al.

I loved the squabbling dynamic between The Rani and The Master,

Pip and Jane definitely knew how to give them, with or without the Doctor in the same scene, more effervescent, sparkling dialogue as well.

even if I wasn't fond of how quickly The Master overpowered her to steal her scientific results.

Fair point.

I particularly enjoyed the juicy tidbits about The Rani's notorious history with immoral experiments peppered throughout the serial by both The Master and The Doctor. That gave us the full flavor of how ruthless she was in her pursuit for scientific knowledge, regardless of the consequences to any life she deemed lesser than her (i.e. pretty much all animal lifeforms but especially humans).

^^this

A truly amoral villain rather than an evil one. Sadly, that changed sooner than you'd think, but for this one story, she's the most inventive new Time Lady introduced in a very long time.

I delight in how her scorn for "lower life" and putting them on display bit her in the ass (almost literally) in the serial's conclusion. And no, I don't care how corny that scene played out. It was perfect, for both of them.

Perhaps my favorite thing about the serial is the marvelous way The Rani's landmines rapidly transformed people into trees. One of the benefits of a low budget is how it forces a production team to use basic methods that then results in creative effects. I think I much prefer the subsequent practical effects of the tree transformation over what would've been done with modern special effects (digital or otherwise). The earthy nature of that quick moment, complete with the dirt flying up and the tree quickly replacing the people, really stroke a chord with me.

^^this

I rather enjoyed the idea... at least until we see the tree selectively move in order to save Peri. Now maybe the idea was to showcase how the person's soul was still alive and trapped inside, which is something I'd expect Moffatt to do for the sheer level of high concept horror involved, and it makes sense as it shows off that the Rani just uses the universe as a sandbox, playing with all the things she can find within without concern or anything else. But that scene comes off unintentionally campy - especially with the Doctor yelling "The tree won't harm you!" It gets even better when you think about it:

As the minefield was still laid out there, imagine a bunch of people turned into trees and then, a century later since trees can live 4x as long as a human and move some of its branches, a couple walking through with a boombox blaring causes all the trees to start wiggling like dancing. Please don't try to imagine that and I'm glad this 1985 story didn't go there because that would really look dumb.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that young-readers books couldn't be good; I'm always horrified by the attitude that things for children should be of low quality. That was my point, that a bad novelization was the exception, not the rule, and that it seemed like the Bakers went overboard in dumbing it down for kids so that it was more simplistic than the norm. Or maybe it was just that they weren't very good writers, period. (The sudden drop in quality in "The Ultimate Foe" from Robert Holmes' Part 1 to the Bakers' Part 2 is jarring.)

Considering that Pip and Jane only had something like a weekend in which to cobble up a concluding episode from scratch, after Saward pulled his pt 2 and left the show because JNT vetoed that episode because it'd leave the door wide open for the show being axed, the final part is amazing that it wasn't any worse. IMHO it's good, but not spectacular, and it needed to be spectacular. It's nowhere near as good as Holmes' pt 1, true, but with Saward leaving and threatening legal action if the script was shown to anyone forced a very hasty writing job and with little to go on. Knowing that, I don't think they were terrible writers, and their next entry, "Time and the Rani", from recollection, was also clobbered by Colin leaving the show or potentially returning or not depending on the negotiations, so Beyus would be the one who eventually dies at the end (not the Doctor) and a lot of Colin's lines ended up being Sylvester's, and - of course - that wig of death... But "Mark of the Rani" and "Terror of the Vervoids" were a lot stronger and definitely more engaging, IMHO anyway.

Sources for "The Ultimate Foe":

The Ultimate Foe (TV story)

The Ultimate Foe was the unbroadcast title given to the fourth story of The Trial of a Time Lord, the series-long storyline that covered Season 23 of Doctor Who. This story marked the final televised appearance of Colin Baker as the Sixth Doctor, however the story is notable for not being the...

tardis.fandom.com

The Ultimate Foe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Christopher]

Considering that Pip and Jane only had something like a weekend in which to cobble up a concluding episode from scratch, after Saward pulled his pt 2 and left the show because JNT vetoed that episode because it'd leave the door wide open for the show being axed, the final part is amazing that it wasn't any worse.

A fair point, but I think (IIRC) that my issue was not so much with the plotting as with the quality of the dialogue, which just felt simpler, blander, and less expressive than Robert Holmes's dialogue. (Not unlike the way it felt to watch a Terry Nation Blake's 7 episode right after a Chris Boucher one.)

 

[jaime]

A fair point, but I think (IIRC) that my issue was not so much with the plotting as with the quality of the dialogue, which just felt simpler, blander, and less expressive than Robert Holmes's dialogue. (Not unlike the way it felt to watch a Terry Nation Blake's 7 episode right after a Chris Boucher one.)

They’re different styles. Pip and Jane are great if you like word play and a kind of… propiety, more science even to an extent, Holmes is more… kitchen sink and satire, and more SF as fantastical allegory. Both are theatre. I wonder if it’s a class thing to an extent as well. But I don’t know enough about their backgrounds to say.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Each decade's got its own gouda and limburger going on.

Touché.

A truly amoral villain rather than an evil one. Sadly, that changed sooner than you'd think, but for this one story, she's the most inventive new Time Lady introduced in a very long time.

Mind you, it was only one additional serial, one that by all accounts, was one of the worst ever (but as you later noted, it wasn't entirely the Bakers' fault). Dimensions in Time doesn't count and by the time The Rani finally showed up in Big Finish, my time and money availability dropped so badly that I haven't had a chance to even think about checking out her audio plays, although I imagine they utilized her well.

I rather enjoyed the idea... at least until we see the tree selectively move in order to save Peri. Now maybe the idea was to showcase how the person's soul was still alive and trapped inside, which is something I'd expect Moffatt to do for the sheer level of high concept horror involved, and it makes sense as it shows off that the Rani just uses the universe as a sandbox, playing with all the things she can find within without concern or anything else. But that scene comes off unintentionally campy - especially with the Doctor yelling "The tree won't harm you!" It gets even better when you think about it:

As the minefield was still laid out there, imagine a bunch of people turned into trees and then, a century later since trees can live 4x as long as a human and move some of its branches, a couple walking through with a boombox blaring causes all the trees to start wiggling like dancing. Please don't try to imagine that and I'm glad this 1985 story didn't go there because that would really look dumb.

I really loved the notion that part of the transmogrification allowed human consciousness to continue, for better or for worse. On the short, that saved Peri's life (but I agree the rubber limb wasn't up to par with the rest of the practical effects). On the other hand, can you imagine the sheer horror for Luke, stuck immobile for potentially centuries?

That's a fascinating prospect that I would love to see Doctor Who tackle at some point and I can only hope such a quandary comes up in the final two episodes, but somehow I doubt it, alas. I fear that Davies may forget how the amoral* scientific experiments are some of the defining attributes of The Rani and he'll instead go with a typical Davies-esque harebrained scheme that could've just as easily been a Master scheme.

*You're right that The Rani is amoral and not immoral. I stand corrected on that point.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Dimensions in Time doesn't count ...

I'm actually hoping that RTD makes a direct reference to DiT In one of the upcoming episodes, but then some people just like to watch the world burn.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm actually hoping that RTD makes a direct reference to DiT In one of the upcoming episodes, but then some people just like to watch the world burn.

To clear, I don't mind it being counted for a story purposes. On the surface, it fits perfectly fine with the rest of the multi-Doctor adventures, complete with silly shenanigans.

I just mean it didn't really count as an example for usage of The Rani since it was so brief and deliberately over-the-top.

 

[JD]

I loved the squabbling dynamic between The Rani and The Master, even if I wasn't fond of how quickly The Master overpowered her to steal her scientific results. I particularly enjoyed the juicy tidbits about The Rani's notorious history with immoral experiments peppered throughout the serial by both The Master and The Doctor. That gave us the full flavor of how ruthless she was in her pursuit for scientific knowledge, regardless of the consequences to any life she deemed lesser than her (i.e. pretty much all animal lifeforms but especially humans). I delight in how her scorn for "lower life" and putting them on display bit her in the ass (almost literally) in the serial's conclusion. And no, I don't care how corny that scene played out. It was perfect, for both of them.

Spoiler: the last three episodes of the current season

I'm really hoping Russel T. Davies remembered this aspect of the character, and didn't just turn into another megalomaniacal psychopath.