Last Classic Who Story you watched

[kirk55555]

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories. And really with all the plot holes in Silver Nemesis I do find it odd that you'd like it.

The Androids Of Tara however is a great story I don't think it's generic at all. Mary Tamm looked great in it and had a double role. Count Grandel is IMO one of the better one off villains in the history of the show. And I loved the swordfight at the end.

I've only heard good things about Battlefield, and while I find some bad reviews, I find equally as many people who like it.

I can't think of really any plot holes in SN, but its not like I said it was a good story. I found it tolerable. It was post Mel, and it didn't involve Ace getting used in a psychological experiment. That gives it points with me, and the fact that I found the story to be not horrible makes it a story I don't think is good, but its definitely good in comparison to the average evil 7th Doctor story.

As for The Androids of Tara, it has so many stupid things. A time lord has a random lookalike on a random Planet, because of course she does. Now, this has happened before, but this is no 2nd Doctor story, its a horrible 4th Doctor story from what is seeming more and more to be the beginning of the 4th Doctor era's sink into mediocrity. Its also a generic "Prince needs to get crowned by faces opposition, so uses a lookalike" story I've seen a bunch of times, its a cliche. Only the androids make it any different.

Also, the "double role" isn't exactly on par with The Doctor/Salamander. In one role she barely does anything, and the other role she's a generic princess who barely does anything. I like Romana, but she's definitely not a big factor in this episode. Count Grendel being one of the "best villains in the history of the show" I really don't agree with. Just counting Classic who, I could put A LOT of villains who are exponentially better than generic evil Count #4568795698.

Anyway, its all opinion. I personally have seen basically every element of this story done better by way too many shows to like this mediocre story. I just want it to end, but I also don't want to waste time on it. I'll probably finish it over the next couple of days, then maybe go back to my rewatch of Trial of a Timelord. I don't think I'll be able to stand more Key to Time without a break.

Remembrance of the Daleks is tolerable? Now thats a laugh.

Well, honestly it was fairly boring, especially the stupid Proto-Unit, but The Doctor wasn't actively trying to mentally destroy Ace, and it had Daleks, so I give it a pass as tolerable. Ace vs. Daleks almost makes it tolerable all by itself. It is better than Colin Baker's Dalek story, but probably not as good as something like NuWho's Evolution of the Daleks, which at least had a halfway interesting supporting cast.

 

[Timewalker]

Ok, so, The Stones of Blood was bad. The story was stupid, the aliens were bad, and the supporting cast were all just terrible. It was really painful to get through this one, heck about halfway through episode 1 I basically couldn't stand it. Outside of The Doctor, Romana and K-9 I basically hated every moment of this story. Its not the worst 4th Doctor story (for example, The Android Invasion and The Robots of Death were both a lot worse) but this was still very bad.

The Stones of Blood is my favorite of the Key to Time stories. Romana learns that she should dress sensibly, and I just love Amelia Rumford scolding the Doctor when she finds him outside ("You'll catch your death of cold!").

"The Sunmakers" is fairly enjoyable and I liked "Image of the Fendahl" quite a bit too.

I liked The Sunmakers. There's something about Image of the Fendahl that's bugged me for decades, though: Why did Leela kiss the scientist? That's so unlike her; she didn't even kiss Andred, the guy she eventually married!

...maybe that means that The Power of Kroll will also be good, which gives me more incentive to struggle through The Androids of Tara.

The Power of Kroll is the worst of the Key to Time stories, and one of the worst Classic Who stories ever!

Robots of Death is one my absolute favorites. The writing in that one is fantastic! The way that an entire society is brought to live with just the few characters is amazing. The setting is really cool too.

Mr Awe

I love this story. It's amazing how they set up the background for the miners' society. Unlike so many others in Doctor Who, this one doesn't feel generic. It's like the characters had lives before the start of the episode, and the survivors will have lives to go back to.

IMO, the worst Tom Baker story was "Destiny of the Daleks." I think it's Lalla Ward's listless performance that ultimately ruins it for me. The entire opening sequence lacks any genuine pace.

I loved her performance, and Romana II is one of my favorite Companions.

The only question I've ever had about this is the same one most Whovians want to know: Why did she regenerate in the first place? (we know the RL reason, but why did she do it in-universe?)

It'd be nice for the new series to return to Peladon and a proper return of the Ice Warriors. I wasn't too thrilled by Cold War, so I would love to see the Ice Warriors return instead of more Cybermen and Dalek stories. But then I'd love to see a sequel to The Masque Of Mandragora.

I'd rather remember Masque of Mandragora in its glorious lushness of the location and the very cute Juliano and Marco. At the time I saw this story, I'd just been reading Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books for a short while, and Juliano and Marco would have made perfect replicas of some of the male characters in those books.

Mel was greatly tortured and threatened during Paradise Towers even a pool cleaning machine threatened her life in that story.

Not to mention almost being eaten!

Thing is, now that I've seen Keeping Up Appearances and Good Neighbors, I can't help but think of the cannibal lady as Daisy and the Caretaker as Tom.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm still trying to get through The Androids of Tara. Its just so lame and generic. I'd rather be watching an outright horrible story, because then at least it wouldn't be so boring. Hopefully I'll be able to bring myself to finish it soon.

But Romana learns how to do needlepoint in The Androids of Tara! That's actually a marketable skill in some places.

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories.

Brigadier Winifred Bambera would disagree with you on that (what a hoot she was!)

 

[Doctorwhovian]

In stories like Ghost Light and Curse Of Fenric, the Doctor was sort of helping Ace face her fears. The reason he was so mean to Ace at the climax of "Curse" was because Ace's faith in the Doctor was stopping the Ancient One Heamavore from killing Fenric (Who would've killed both the Doctor and Ace).The faith stuff stopped Haemavores and seemed to cause a lot of pain. Also-although in an indirect way-going back to the base in 1944, the Doctor indirectly ensured Ace's existence. Ace saves her future grandmother and mother, hence creating her own future as Fenric notes.

The reason the Ancient One attacked Fenric was because the Doctor had convinced it that it too, was caught in a paradox of sorts. The Ancient One, if it released Millington's poison, would create it's future where Earth was a toxic mess. ("This act will be the beginning of your end!"). Presumably, the Haemavore didn't like his 'bad' future ("My world is dead") as well as a pawn of Fenric's-and erased it by killing Fenric and itself with the same poison.

It's also kind of interesting that the Doctor uses the companions as his faith-when they attack the church, the Doctor starts going through his companions's names (Although he only gets to around the Hartnell ones before the Haemavores back away). So Ace's faith in the Doctor is the reverse of that.

The Doctor later would use a similar thing in The God Complex, although it was the eleventh and Amy.


Interestingly, Ian Briggs wrote both Dragonfire-Ace's intro-and Curse Of Fenric. So in some ways he was instrumental in the character's development.


Granted, the Doctor does do more questionable acts in the New Adventures novels, especially in Love And War.

Spoiler: Love and war novel

The Doctor sacrifices Ace's boyfriend, Jan, to destroy the Hoothi (Aliens mentioned in the classic Brain Of Morbius) who have taken over a planet.

 

[DWF]

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories.

Brigadier Winifred Bambera would disagree with you on that (what a hoot she was!)

Personally I really like Battlefield, but I know that among fans it's not a well liked story. But I would love to see Ben Aaeonvitch write for the new series.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I agree on both points. I really enjoy Battlefield. The interplay between the characters was great. It involved a bit of timey-whimeyness that reminds me of Moffat. Mainly it was a fun romp. I would also like to see Ben write for the new series as well.

Mr Awe

 

[kirk55555]

In stories like Ghost Light and Curse Of Fenric, the Doctor was sort of helping Ace face her fears. The reason he was so mean to Ace at the climax of "Curse" was because Ace's faith in the Doctor was stopping the Ancient One Heamavore from killing Fenric (Who would've killed both the Doctor and Ace).The faith stuff stopped Haemavores and seemed to cause a lot of pain. Also-although in an indirect way-going back to the base in 1944, the Doctor indirectly ensured Ace's existence. Ace saves her future grandmother and mother, hence creating her own future as Fenric notes.

The reason the Ancient One attacked Fenric was because the Doctor had convinced it that it too, was caught in a paradox of sorts. The Ancient One, if it released Millington's poison, would create it's future where Earth was a toxic mess. ("This act will be the beginning of your end!"). Presumably, the Haemavore didn't like his 'bad' future ("My world is dead") as well as a pawn of Fenric's-and erased it by killing Fenric and itself with the same poison.

It's also kind of interesting that the Doctor uses the companions as his faith-when they attack the church, the Doctor starts going through his companions's names (Although he only gets to around the Hartnell ones before the Haemavores back away). So Ace's faith in the Doctor is the reverse of that.

Eh, those were The Doctor's reasons as said by the story, but it never made any sense. Curse of Fenric is especially weird, because no one who was involved in Ghost Light and The Greatest Show in the Galaxy should have had any faith left in The Doctor anyway.

Really, though, all his stated reasons were stupid. Everyone is scared of things, Ace could have lived her whole life without needing to "confront" her fears of an old house, and it didn't actually have a point in the end. Also, the reveal that The Doctor apparently was the one who sent Ace through time in the first place for absolutely no reason (when Mel was shopping, I guess, since he had no opportunity between regeneration and Dragonfire to do that or meet Fenris or do anything) just cemented for me that he's just screwing with her. Yeah, he says he did it because...Fenris, I guess. And obviously Fenris was some threat, but that still leaves Ghost Light and The greatest Show in the Galaxy as stories that are purely about The Doctor torturing Ace.

In the end, nothing he did to her "improved" her, and I think Ace would have been born without any interference from him, unless we're supposed to believe that Ace is part of a predestination paradox involving her own birth. I guess you could say she can now go to circuses and not be terrified of the clowns. That was really not worth the psychological torture (to both the viewer and Ace in the case of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy).

Seriously, though, for all the time Day of the Doctor spent trying to decide whether The War Doctor was actually still The Doctor, it was the 7th Doctor who did horrible things no other incarnation (outside of The Valeyard) would ever have done. I bet any incarnation could have accomplished what he did without treated ace as a lab rat. It was just that the 7th got stuck with some of the worst stories of Classic Who. McCoy deserved better, because his first version of the Doctor was solid, but they really ruined him, and wasted a great companion.

I'd better stop now, I could probably go on for days about the 7th Doctor

 

[DWF]

In stories like Ghost Light and Curse Of Fenric, the Doctor was sort of helping Ace face her fears. The reason he was so mean to Ace at the climax of "Curse" was because Ace's faith in the Doctor was stopping the Ancient One Heamavore from killing Fenric (Who would've killed both the Doctor and Ace).The faith stuff stopped Haemavores and seemed to cause a lot of pain. Also-although in an indirect way-going back to the base in 1944, the Doctor indirectly ensured Ace's existence. Ace saves her future grandmother and mother, hence creating her own future as Fenric notes.

The reason the Ancient One attacked Fenric was because the Doctor had convinced it that it too, was caught in a paradox of sorts. The Ancient One, if it released Millington's poison, would create it's future where Earth was a toxic mess. ("This act will be the beginning of your end!"). Presumably, the Haemavore didn't like his 'bad' future ("My world is dead") as well as a pawn of Fenric's-and erased it by killing Fenric and itself with the same poison.

It's also kind of interesting that the Doctor uses the companions as his faith-when they attack the church, the Doctor starts going through his companions's names (Although he only gets to around the Hartnell ones before the Haemavores back away). So Ace's faith in the Doctor is the reverse of that.

Eh, those were The Doctor's reasons as said by the story, but it never made any sense. Curse of Fenric is especially weird, because no one who was involved in Ghost Light and The Greatest Show in the Galaxy should have had any faith left in The Doctor anyway.

Really, though, all his stated reasons were stupid. Everyone is scared of things, Ace could have lived her whole life without needing to "confront" her fears of an old house, and it didn't actually have a point in the end. Also, the reveal that The Doctor apparently was the one who sent Ace through time in the first place for absolutely no reason (when Mel was shopping, I guess, since he had no opportunity between regeneration and Dragonfire to do that or meet Fenris or do anything) just cemented for me that he's just screwing with her. Yeah, he says he did it because...Fenris, I guess. And obviously Fenris was some threat, but that still leaves Ghost Light and The greatest Show in the Galaxy as stories that are purely about The Doctor torturing Ace.

In the end, nothing he did to her "improved" her, and I think Ace would have been born without any interference from him, unless we're supposed to believe that Ace is part of a predestination paradox involving her own birth. I guess you could say she can now go to circuses and not be terrified of the clowns. That was really not worth the psychological torture (to both the viewer and Ace in the case of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy).

Seriously, though, for all the time Day of the Doctor spent trying to decide whether The War Doctor was actually still The Doctor, it was the 7th Doctor who did horrible things no other incarnation (outside of The Valeyard) would ever have done. I bet any incarnation could have accomplished what he did without treated ace as a lab rat. It was just that the 7th got stuck with some of the worst stories of Classic Who. McCoy deserved better, because his first version of the Doctor was solid, but they really ruined him, and wasted a great companion.

I'd better stop now, I could probably go on for days about the 7th Doctor

It was Fenric who transported Ace to Iceworld so could meet the Doctor in the first place. And really if Ace hadn't tevelled with the Doctor she'd never had found closure with her mother or her little bit of arson in burning down the house in Ghost Light. Ace was really a part of Fenric's experiment, she's a desendant of the Vikings who took the treasure in the first place and it was Ace who told Fenric how to end the chess game. Fenric was a very complex story and in any event it was written by Ian Briggs who created Ace to begin with.

 

[kirk55555]

It was Fenric who transported Ace to Iceworld so could meet the Doctor in the first place. And really if Ace hadn't tevelled with the Doctor she'd never had found closure with her mother or her little bit of arson in burning down the house in Ghost Light. Ace was really a part of Fenric's experiment, she's a desendant of the Vikings who took the treasure in the first place and it was Ace who told Fenric how to end the chess game. Fenric was a very complex story and in any event it was written by Ian Briggs who created Ace to begin with.

From what I remember, she didn't actually forgive her mother (for whatever she did, I wish they'd actually told us why Ace hated her). Also, I don't think she needed "closure" for a stupid bit of arson. The rest of the stuff is pretty stupid. It makes me glad Ian Briggs didn't write anything else. Besides the fact that he wrote two fairly bad serials, this is the same guy who (according to what I've read online) wanted Ace to have lost her virginity to Glitz. I don't think anything Briggs planned for ace should really be taken as a positive.

Anyway, The Curse of Fenric had a lot of stupid stuff. It was badly written, and had more stupid coincidences than normal, even for a bad Doctor Who serial. Plus, I really want to know when he had the time to meet Fenric, plan out torturing Ace, etc. As far as I can tell, he didn't become an evil manipulator until Dragonfire, so I'm wondering if there is an implied adventure with The Doctor and Mel versus Fenric. Regardless, it was a horrible serial, and it doesn't justify anything the Doctor does to Ace in Ghost Light or The Greatest Show in the Galaxy.

 

[DWF]

It was Fenric who transported Ace to Iceworld so could meet the Doctor in the first place. And really if Ace hadn't tevelled with the Doctor she'd never had found closure with her mother or her little bit of arson in burning down the house in Ghost Light. Ace was really a part of Fenric's experiment, she's a desendant of the Vikings who took the treasure in the first place and it was Ace who told Fenric how to end the chess game. Fenric was a very complex story and in any event it was written by Ian Briggs who created Ace to begin with.

From what I remember, she didn't actually forgive her mother (for whatever she did, I wish they'd actually told us why Ace hated her). Also, I don't think she needed "closure" for a stupid bit of arson. The rest of the stuff is pretty stupid. It makes me glad Ian Briggs didn't write anything else. Besides the fact that he wrote two fairly bad serials, this is the same guy who (according to what I've read online) wanted Ace to have lost her virginity to Glitz. I don't think anything Briggs planned for ace should really be taken as a positive.

Anyway, The Curse of Fenric had a lot of stupid stuff. It was badly written, and had more stupid coincidences than normal, even for a bad Doctor Who serial. Plus, I really want to know when he had the time to meet Fenric, plan out torturing Ace, etc. As far as I can tell, he didn't become an evil manipulator until Dragonfire, so I'm wondering if there is an implied adventure with The Doctor and Mel versus Fenric. Regardless, it was a horrible serial, and it doesn't justify anything the Doctor does to Ace in Ghost Light or The Greatest Show in the Galaxy.

Ace was a teenager she didn't need a reason to hate her mother and really there was no plan to torture Ace. In Ghost Light he told her she should have used explosives to take down the house, in effect telling her she did the right thing. He didn't do anything to Ace in The Greatest Show In The Galaxy, but did in the end agree with her that clowns are creepy.

 

[Pindar]

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories. And really with all the plot holes in Silver Nemesis I do find it odd that you'd like it.

I love Silver Nemesis, it is still one of my favourite 7th Doctor stories.

 

[DWF]

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories. And really with all the plot holes in Silver Nemesis I do find it odd that you'd like it.

I love Silver Nemesis, it is still one of my favourite 7th Doctor stories.

I think Curse Of Fenric, Remembrance Of The Daleks and Ghost Light were all better stories. But there's several holes in Silver Nemesis' storyline. For one I really had to wonder how the nei-Naxis survived the explosion in the crypt. For an anniversary story it's pretty lacking IMO.

 

[DarthPipes]

I liked Battlefield a lot more than Silver Nemesis and I wasn't crazy about Ghost Light (I hear that takes multiple viewings to understand what's going on). I liked Silver Nemesis though. Really liked Survival.

 

[Starkers]

Just finished re-watching The War Games. It goes on a bit but it's still really good!

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I watched War Games last year for the first time in 20 years or so and I was shocked at how good it was. Parts even felt epic. I was also surprised that it didn't feel overly padded. Really a fantastic story.

Mr Awe

 

[Pindar]

Neither Battlefield nor Silver Nemesis are generally considered to be good stories. And really with all the plot holes in Silver Nemesis I do find it odd that you'd like it.

I love Silver Nemesis, it is still one of my favourite 7th Doctor stories.

I think Curse Of Fenric, Remembrance Of The Daleks and Ghost Light were all better stories. But there's several holes in Silver Nemesis' storyline. For one I really had to wonder how the nei-Naxis survived the explosion in the crypt. For an anniversary story it's pretty lacking IMO.

It's full of holes and those other stories are good, but I have always liked it. Probably when it originally aired it caught my imagination and rose tinted specs screen out all the nonsense when I rewatch nowadays.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

But then I'd love to see a sequel to The Masque Of Mandragora.

The 10th Doctor novel "Beautiful Chaos" is a sequel to "The Masque of Mandragora." (It was also the 10th Doctor novel reprinted for the 50th anniversary series 2 years ago.)

that kinda makes the whole story work better IMHO, and because of that, it felt very real, and made me like the notion of the Earth Federation, a concept I would very much like to see come back in the future in Doctor Who, especially if we do get to see more Ice Warriors with some actually cool and intelligent and skilled Earth defense forces we have heard so much about in the comics and novels. I hate it when the Earth characters of the future are portrayed as idiots or biggots in Doctor who.. I want to see something that shows a positive human space fleet and this time one that doesn't always carry bullet weapons.. the human crew hiding from the Daleks was a good start in the Capaldi Into the Dalek epi... but I would like to see them Tackle an Alpha centari alien with new effects, and also bring us some more Ice Warriors as Good allies of Earth either fighting against the Daleks as a unified Federation, or the Cybermen.. if nothing else, the Peladon episodes gave us a glimpse of a great potential and seldom used plot that is quite intriguing and has a ton of potential.

I agree that we need to see more competent portrayals of humanity in the future. A return of the alliance from the Peladon stories would be welcome. Although, I just don't think that there's a non-stupid way that you could render the Alpha Centauri without changing them to the point that they're totally unrecognizable. They also need to bring back the Draconians from "Frontier in Space." I can't believe they never even came back on the classic series!

Speaking of good ice Warrior novels, There's also the Dying Days by Lance Parkin, which was the last Doctor-centric "New Adventures" novel (The others would focus on Benny Summerfield since the Doctor Who novels were moving to the BBC) and the first Eighth Doctor novel (unless of course you count the TV movie adaptation). It's somewhat hard and probably expensive to track down a print copy but I think it was offered as an E-book not long ago (and with a lot of the old books getting reprinted, might at some point be easier to find).

Yeah. Current cheapest copy available on Amazon is going for about $70.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Part of the problem with Silver Nemesis is that the story is deriative of Rememberance of the Daleks (and in the same season no less!) except it's set in the modern day (well, 1988).


Also McCoy as well as others (such as Fiona Walker) really camp it up, whereas his performance in Rememberance was far more restrained (except for maybe the "unlimited rice pudding" line). It's like he's back to season 24.

 

[diankra]

Strictly speaking, it's the other way round, as Nemesis was commissioned and outlined first - negotiations with Terry Nation over doing a Dalek story at all meant that Remembrance went from initial go-ahead to recording pretty fast. However, it is unfortunate to have such similarities in the plot, particularly with Remembrance running first and being pretty universally viewed as the better script. If they'd run the other way round, Nemesis might have got a slightly better reception, with people then criticising Remembrance for the repetition while admitted it worked better.

 

[DWF]

Part of the problem with Silver Nemesis is that the story is deriative of Rememberance of the Daleks (and in the same season no less!) except it's set in the modern day (well, 1988).


Also McCoy as well as others (such as Fiona Walker) really camp it up, whereas his performance in Rememberance was far more restrained (except for maybe the "unlimited rice pudding" line). It's like he's back to season 24.

To make matters even worse, Ace says in Silver Nemesis that the Doctor pulled off the trick against the Daleks. But I do think that Remembrance is the better story even with the rice pudding line.

 

[Mr Awe]

Strictly speaking, it's the other way round, as Nemesis was commissioned and outlined first - negotiations with Terry Nation over doing a Dalek story at all meant that Remembrance went from initial go-ahead to recording pretty fast. However, it is unfortunate to have such similarities in the plot, particularly with Remembrance running first and being pretty universally viewed as the better script. If they'd run the other way round, Nemesis might have got a slightly better reception, with people then criticising Remembrance for the repetition while admitted it worked better.

I would doubt, but don't know for sure, that either writer would've been aware of the other's plot details while writing their own story. Of course, the script editor could've edited it later but that would be a large scale procedure with little time!

Mr Awe