Yeah, I've not seen The Two Doctors for a while either, but it can't be all that bad, given its Bob Holmes and all.
Last Classic Who Story you watched
- Thread starter Pindar
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I only listened to Master. It was very much when BF was dancing the lone with tying to the old NA range. In that regard, it was pretty good. (And also illustrates how much more interesting it is if the Master had been the TC, making him not only Rassilon’s sin, but the Time Lords Original Sin, in much the way he is sort of the Doctor’s in this audio.)
It's a bit awkward trying to cram in a new Two/Jamie story when they're decades older, and its conceit that they dropped off Victoria temporarily doesn't fit the Doctor's inability to steer the TARDIS in that era -- which is the main thing that led to the creation of the "Series 6B" theory that the Time Lords sent the Doctor on secret missions between "The War Games" and "Spearhead from Space," though that's still not a very good patch for it.
Otherwise, I found it mostly entertaining and I enjoyed the interplay between the Doctors, but I was uncomfortable with the Doctor's attitude toward the Androgums as an intrinsically inferior and savage race. It's one thing for the Doctor to have that kind of attitude toward Daleks or Cybermen, who have mighty, destructive empires, but the Androgums are a servant population, so the Doctor's contempt for them as a race feels like punching down, which is out of character.
All of the androgum stuff is a bit rubbish tbh. Offensive even. In terms of serving the story, only Chessene is needed, and could have been more interesting as a tragic figure. The cannibalism shite is a personal bugbear for me, and it’s that era of Saward being grim for the sake of being grim. The idea of changes rippling down the Doctor’s timeline was interesting, but not really used properly, or enough.
Ironically, it all suffers the same problem we have in the Twin Dilemma, in making the Doctor fundamentally unlikeable for… reasons? Only now it’s an established Doctor, which makes it even worse really.
Troughton and Hines chemistry just never gets old.
It's not his worst, to say the least. Do report back to us after seeing it!
No less so than "The Three Doctors" when the returning actors weren't that much older? it was just awesome to see them again.
Following contains possible spoilers, but when in doubt:
When I first saw the story as a kid, I went "That's cool." But I knew nothing of the junkings, much less where the companions did end up at. Later rewatches do reveal some discontinuities, partly due to Holmes' health, last minute location change because funding collapsed (supposedly the American distributor cofinanced what would have been a trip to New Orleans), as well as mixing up how Doctors 2 and 3 acted as 2 acts so much more like 3 in this one. And yet, Troughton still keeps Troughtonisms in it, and Jamie's identical. Season 6b is a neat way to get around it but, as with all things for a long running show, you know something's going to change it all later on. And other examples already had, with how the Doctor regenerates going from a TARDIS feature to a survival mechanism with a natural limitation, and even Castrovalva now states that a zero room is needed or how frequencies emitted by the machine can impair regeneration recovery, though some of that might not have been needed if the Hartnell/Troughton regeneration was indeed the first, for which "The Brain of Morbius" is the first to really hint at more going on despite Pertwee stories being the first to claim that Hartnell was decidedly "the earliest" or "first". And that's just 20th century Who discontinuities, a tall order to want to iron out...
Oh, I do remember in 1986 and wondering why Troughton had the same hairdo, but was gray. But the gripe was brief, upon initial sight at the start of course, and Troughton remained Troughtony in persona throughout so it didn't matter. At least to me, there were fans taking it much more and the modern series has come up with interesting reasons to explain the perceived aging.
Seconded. There's more sympathy for them as they were also subjects for genetic experimentation, which in turn created Chessene (there's a creative name that isn't sledgehammery at all!) But Shockeye wasn't modified, though had blood taken from him to augment the Doctor with and he felt uppity over that when he wasn't changed at all. Just misguided anger, as well as being too easy wanting to eat up some humans.
But the Doctor thought all humans were savages at one point, until Ian and Barbara (and even Susan, who knew the humans better than he had) had to proverbially slap his face via action to show that they were not, since most humans of the 20th century weren't and it wasn't 500AD anymore or any other time period where the Doctor almost lost the ship or almost got killed, etc. On top of other planets with harrowing adventures, early Doctor there was definitely wound up with paranoia over all sorts of species.
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As the seventh doctor once said, paranoia is just a heightened sense of how badly the universe is out to get you.
A lot of the Androgum stuff was meant to be a pro-vegetarian statement. Robert Holmes was a vegetarian. They were supposed to be unlikeable for that reason. I thought having a species actually interested in eating the companions was risky and it worked for me. And a good enough reason for the Doctor to not like them.
Aww - Davros was really good, from what I remember. Then they made a series of audios called I, Davros that were good, too.
It just came over as unnecessarily grim, and I am aware it’s something I find generally nasty and unpleasant and taboo for a reason, particularly as I get older. Whether it’s The Cook, His Wife and Her Lover, or Hannibal, I just find it disgusting.
I’m aware that’s a me problem.
In this episode though? It’s presented in such a way as it probably triggered that reaction in me in the first place. Not least as the Androgums are basically presented as Scots, and are not very alien. Offensive, and no place in Who I reckon.
Now I, Davros was phenomenal, least of all because of how it emulated the equally excellent I, Claudius.
"Logopolis" -
Every time I rewatch it, there's more to like, even if the technology is dated and even if the Logopolitans couldn't use Earth technology made a few decades later than what was 1980, also proving that the story feels dated faster if relying too much on contemporary items rather than basic principles that still are relevant today despite different and prettier packaging, as being loosely educational toward issues of STEM, they weren't going to use abacuses or punched cards any more than they had to. That said, it sure is a fun time capsule in that regard so it's a win-win.
The middle two episodes really build up the claustrophobia of the situation. The final episode starts to feel rushed right when you'd expect it to, and part one has to deal with a history lesson of the show because too many fans didn't know Doctors before Tom Baker existed.
Not to mention, why not go back to Gallifrey to fix the failing components? If the Logopolitans can restructure anything based on complex mathematics, for which nods to "the living mind" and "clumsy symbols" as spoken by the non-humans remains effervescent as always, as Earth is not the center of the universe... except it is in this instance as a looping self-sustaining object created by the Logopolitans was finished just in time to allow heat build-up to be shifted to pollute other universes and accelerating their deaths, wheeeeeeeeee! E-Space is just one of many, but when your universe has otherwise lasted longer than a frog in that pot of water bubbling and you're keeping it going with a proverbial set of bellows, whatchagonnado?
Antony Ainley just steals the show at every turn.
John Fraser too, as the Monitor, excels. His death scene in pt 4 is particularly chilling.
As is part 3's cliffhanger. We've seen the Master evil in this episode. Really long-time fans of the time would remember Delgado's machinations. Either way, it renders this cliffhanger even more chilling as the Doctor looks physically sick when shaking the Master's hand. Especially as the Doctor works in good faith with the light speed overdrive device, for which the Master - go figure - thought the Doc was full of it. Other incarnations, maybe or maybe not. But 4? On top of everything else, this Master was too driven by paranoia, perhaps power, or a bit of both.
I don't think I noticed the Doctor's quip "Well, a little of her" when Tegan asks if he had seen her aunt before, which is the most sardonic bit of humor the show had ever attempted but also doubles as a salient point, given the Doctor's chats with The Watcher and knowing what is to happen. Dude's cracking up and trying to maintain composure better than any assembly line human might.
Speaking of assembly line folks, Tegan and Nyssa gets moments to get angry over the Master callously murdering everyone they'd loved (friendship, familial, you name it, as nobody honestly is going to care since none of it makes a difference given the scope of events.) Tegan remains wanting to help, and Nyssa goes out father hunting - a dumb move.
Yeah, the TARDIS now has a back door for some reason, and too much drama is placed on the officers' sincerity in looking at two oddly-dressed dolls and thinking they're people who had been shrunken down.
The blu-ray special effects make this the definitive edition, giving more dramatic weight to the Doctor's deadly fall as well as demonstrating better the entropy effect blotting out bits of the universe. Really well done.
The Doctor's idea to submerge the TARDIS to flush out the Master makes zero sense. He'd just rematerialize after the Doctor would open up the rear door to let all the water out, though wouldn't it have been funny of the Doctor had landed it, opened the doors remotely, then shift to exterior shot of the river being drained away? Maybe for a CiN parody episode, especially as CGI could do it virtually photorealistically now.
The music and pervasive funerary feel throughout are no less than magnificent.
Plus, the Doctor saves the universe - literally. The Fourth would be the one that wouldn't feel melodramatic or cliché.
A-
Every time I rewatch it, there's more to like, even if the technology is dated and even if the Logopolitans couldn't use Earth technology made a few decades later than what was 1980, also proving that the story feels dated faster if relying too much on contemporary items rather than basic principles that still are relevant today despite different and prettier packaging, as being loosely educational toward issues of STEM, they weren't going to use abacuses or punched cards any more than they had to. That said, it sure is a fun time capsule in that regard so it's a win-win.
The middle two episodes really build up the claustrophobia of the situation. The final episode starts to feel rushed right when you'd expect it to, and part one has to deal with a history lesson of the show because too many fans didn't know Doctors before Tom Baker existed.
Not to mention, why not go back to Gallifrey to fix the failing components? If the Logopolitans can restructure anything based on complex mathematics, for which nods to "the living mind" and "clumsy symbols" as spoken by the non-humans remains effervescent as always, as Earth is not the center of the universe... except it is in this instance as a looping self-sustaining object created by the Logopolitans was finished just in time to allow heat build-up to be shifted to pollute other universes and accelerating their deaths, wheeeeeeeeee! E-Space is just one of many, but when your universe has otherwise lasted longer than a frog in that pot of water bubbling and you're keeping it going with a proverbial set of bellows, whatchagonnado?
Antony Ainley just steals the show at every turn.
John Fraser too, as the Monitor, excels. His death scene in pt 4 is particularly chilling.
As is part 3's cliffhanger. We've seen the Master evil in this episode. Really long-time fans of the time would remember Delgado's machinations. Either way, it renders this cliffhanger even more chilling as the Doctor looks physically sick when shaking the Master's hand. Especially as the Doctor works in good faith with the light speed overdrive device, for which the Master - go figure - thought the Doc was full of it. Other incarnations, maybe or maybe not. But 4? On top of everything else, this Master was too driven by paranoia, perhaps power, or a bit of both.
I don't think I noticed the Doctor's quip "Well, a little of her" when Tegan asks if he had seen her aunt before, which is the most sardonic bit of humor the show had ever attempted but also doubles as a salient point, given the Doctor's chats with The Watcher and knowing what is to happen. Dude's cracking up and trying to maintain composure better than any assembly line human might.
Speaking of assembly line folks, Tegan and Nyssa gets moments to get angry over the Master callously murdering everyone they'd loved (friendship, familial, you name it, as nobody honestly is going to care since none of it makes a difference given the scope of events.) Tegan remains wanting to help, and Nyssa goes out father hunting - a dumb move.
Yeah, the TARDIS now has a back door for some reason, and too much drama is placed on the officers' sincerity in looking at two oddly-dressed dolls and thinking they're people who had been shrunken down.
The blu-ray special effects make this the definitive edition, giving more dramatic weight to the Doctor's deadly fall as well as demonstrating better the entropy effect blotting out bits of the universe. Really well done.
The Doctor's idea to submerge the TARDIS to flush out the Master makes zero sense. He'd just rematerialize after the Doctor would open up the rear door to let all the water out, though wouldn't it have been funny of the Doctor had landed it, opened the doors remotely, then shift to exterior shot of the river being drained away? Maybe for a CiN parody episode, especially as CGI could do it virtually photorealistically now.
The music and pervasive funerary feel throughout are no less than magnificent.
Plus, the Doctor saves the universe - literally. The Fourth would be the one that wouldn't feel melodramatic or cliché.
A-
Definitely agreed; Shockeye (and Chessene) should have been more decidedly alien. They're passable, just about, but teeter on self-parody now that you mention the Scottish correlation. But correlation vs causation?
Did Robert Holmes have a deliberate thing against Scotland, or was it just a coincidence? Was he writing for Jamie and then ideas for saving on costume budget crossed his mind? In "The Ark in Space" (another Holmes epic), he has the Doctor saying "how things in the universe can sometimes repeat coincidentally" but he's referring to caterpillars and cocoons, not humanoid lifeforms! Disclaimer: I'm part Scottish (and part Irish) but I never made the correlation until you'd mentioned it and can somewhat understand. It's not like the Scots were the only segment of humanity to develop kilt-like clothing, though: The hakama, among others that predate the kilt but have a sufficiently similar visage.
That part I do remember reading. And there's no better way to show it than to be on the opposite side. The Rani made a quip about "the lesser species when they sink their teeth into a lambchop" but in the next story, we're lambchops on legs and Shari Lewis doesn't have her hand up--
So, yeah, that's one way to try to induce empathy without citing third party sources...
It's bold and daring, audacious, certainly. The Doctor having heard of them but not meeting them, or shall I say - meating them - said a lot of other things in the story as well, and Holmes' penchant for overt cynicism in his scripting stemmed back to the 1970s, but did seem to increase over time. (Sorry for the pun, but I had to pun't it...)
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The Doctor and the Time Lords didn't generally get along that well. Not to mention that his TARDIS was stolen, so if he took it back in to the shop, it might get repossessed.
I watched The Seeds of Death yesterday, a fairly standard but watchable 2nd Doctor adventure. Like most 6 episode serials it felt a bit padded out, but its supporting cast was pretty good and of course The 2nd Doctor/Jamie/Zoey is a very good TARDIS crew. I liked seeing the Ice Warriors, although the T-Mat (I'm assuming this evolves into "Transmat") system was kind of stupid. they literally abolished all forms of transportation except for a teleportation system based on the moon? Thats a pretty big stretch, especially since they didn't even have local transportation like cars any more.
It was funny to see The Doctor almost killed by foam, they certainly filled up several sets to the brim with the stuff.
It was funny to see The Doctor almost killed by foam, they certainly filled up several sets to the brim with the stuff.
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