Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of production'

[Skywalker]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I don't know if this is a valid argument or not, but wouldn't a female assassin be less realistic in these kinds of games? I realize the Assassins and Templars aren't exactly mainstream citizens, but they would still be more apt to follow the societal norms of their time.

Why are there no female Assassins? Well, honestly, because the men of the time probably wouldn't allow it.

There already has been a female Assassin: Aveline de Grandpré.

Maybe Ubisoft just think it's easier to animate female characters on a smaller screen.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I don't know if this is a valid argument or not, but wouldn't a female assassin be less realistic in these kinds of games? I realize the Assassins and Templars aren't exactly mainstream citizens, but they would still be more apt to follow the societal norms of their time.

Why are there no female Assassins? Well, honestly, because the men of the time probably wouldn't allow it.

In a society where woman are everywhere and yet nearly invisible, a female assassin has a distinct advantage wouldn't you say?

Plus, reality check: there's been plenty of *known* female assassins throughout history. Indeed, if they ever do a French Revolution AssCreed game, I'd be shocked if Charlotte Corday doesn't at least get a cameo! Then of course there's Mochizuki Chiyome and her Kunoichi...
Of course the very best assassins are the ones nobody ever heard of, so there's no telling how many of those were women.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Oh, sure, of course there have been female assassins, but were there really that many female Assassins (capital A)? You have a group that's pretty much dominated by men...how many women do you think they would allow to join?

I suppose it really depends on who's in charge at the time.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I think it's beside the point whether there have or haven't been female assassins in history. This is a fantasy game which is hugely popular. It's not good enough to not have an option of playing a female character.

On the other hand, I loved Mirror's Edge which was a female character but that's not why I loved it. Games that have skill based problems with a minimum of killing seem to be tragically rare.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I think it's beside the point whether there have or haven't been female assassins in history. This is a fantasy game which is hugely popular. It's not good enough to not have an option of playing a female character.

Most games don't give you an option of gender. The AC games are about specific characters that they've invented, not about random faceless people.

I personally don't care either way what gender my character is, but I do matter that it makes sense within the context of the story. Ezio had a wife. Edward had a wife and children. You couldn't just make him a woman without changing his entire background.

Hell, if we really want to get into it, we could argue that Animus technology works best with a Y chromosome. Who knows?

 

[Deckerd]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

What kind of believable argument is 'most games don't'? Most CEOs are male. Is that an argument to keep it that way?

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I'm not arguing for or against it. The AC games just aren't designed that way.

That'd be like playing Tomb Raider and having the option to change Lara Croft into a dude. You can't do that because Lara Corft isn't a dude. She's a woman, and that influences her character.

So far AC has chosen men as main characters, except that one time that they, ya know, chose a woman as the main character. I don't care what gender the character is as long as they have a fitting story to along with him/her.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Oh, sure, of course there have been female assassins, but were there really that many female Assassins (capital A)? You have a group that's pretty much dominated by men...how many women do you think they would allow to join?

I suppose it really depends on who's in charge at the time.

Well as Skywalker pointed out, they've already established that there have been female "Assassins", so....

Besides, Ubisoft are the ones writing these games, if there's a rule that woman can't be assassins then it's a rule they made up and can change just as easily. After all, it's a franchise that spans centuries. Things change.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I'm not arguing for or against it. The AC games just aren't designed that way.

So you are arguing against it.

That'd be like playing Tomb Raider and having the option to change Lara Croft into a dude. You can't do that because Lara Corft isn't a dude. She's a woman, and that influences her character.

How would the TR games be different if your character was male?

So far AC has chosen men as main characters, except that one time that they, ya know, chose a woman as the main character. I don't care what gender the character is as long as they have a fitting story to along with him/her.

You have the luxury of not caring because you, as a white guy, are the "default" in the vast majority of games. It's easy not to give a shit when you're already well catered to.

 

[Kelthaz]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Bottom line, under no circumstances should an artistic medium be declared a "boys only club". It's moronic and counter productive.

But it is. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality of the situation.

What kind of believable argument is 'most games don't'? Most CEOs are male. Is that an argument to keep it that way?

Most games aren't set to a single gender (usually male) because that's just the way things are. It's because most games have stories that follow specific characters. Sure, games where you create your character (such as the Elder Scrolls series) should and do allow you to create a female character, but most games follow predefined characters no different from movies. What you're asking for is equivalent of a DVD giving you the option to set Indiana Jones' gender when you pop in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I agree that more games should feature female protagonists, but you can't just give every game the option to change your gender.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Bottom line, under no circumstances should an artistic medium be declared a "boys only club". It's moronic and counter productive.

But it is. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality of the situation.

Yeah, I'm sure things will change all by themselves while people just shrug and say "it's the reality of the situation!"

I have to seriously question the motives of people who continually make those defeatist sorts of statements. Do you think you're revealing some significant insight? Do you think it's at all helpful? Do you think anyone here doesn't know the status quo?

What kind of believable argument is 'most games don't'? Most CEOs are male. Is that an argument to keep it that way?

Most games aren't set to a single gender (usually male) because that's just the way things are. It's because most games have stories that follow specific characters. Sure, games where you create your character (such as the Elder Scrolls series) should and do allow you to create a female character, but most games follow predefined characters no different from movies. What you're asking for is equivalent of a DVD giving you the option to set Indiana Jones' gender when you pop in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I agree that more games should feature female protagonists, but you can't just give every game the option to change your gender.

Nonsense. Games are inherently different from movies. In movies, you are asked to enjoy a story that is presented to you, which you can only do in a passive manner. You have no influence and no say. You can only watch, absorb, and interpret. You don't get your choice of characters or story or anything.

Video games are a completely different medium. The entire point of playing a game is that you are in control. You aren't in full control of everything, but in most games you are essentially inserting yourself into a story, and from there you have varying degrees of freedom. Most games have no special requirement for a uniquely male or female protagonist. For one thing, making such an assumption implies there are fundamental differences in the narrative possibilities for men and women, which is garbage. What is this really meant to communicate? Men get to have wide ranges of adventures and experiences while women are only allowed to have very narrow sorts of experiences? That's what the current crop of male-dominated games would imply, and of course it isn't true.

I have to ask, what is the purpose in defending these sorts of practices? Do people just object to having women as (possible) protagonists in games? Do people think it's clever or insightful to use "marketing" or "demographics" or "that's just how it is" as arguments?

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

You just can't rely on a main character who might get pregnant during a crucial phase of development, I mean, these are multiple hundred million dollar productions.

 

[Kelthaz]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I have to seriously question the motives of people who continually make those defeatist sorts of statements. Do you think you're revealing some significant insight? Do you think it's at all helpful? Do you think anyone here doesn't know the status quo?

Oh, I'm not defeatist at all. I'm quite optimistic actually. The industry is changing, but it's not going to start at the AAA level.

Popular Indie games such Shantae and Child of Light have female protagonists.
Nintendo showcased several female characters for Hyrule Warriors and an all-female cast for the FPS Splatoon.
Harvest Moon allows for gay marriage. Admittedly only in Japan for fear of a higher ESRB rating in the North American version of the game, but it still counts.

Nonsense. Games are inherently different from movies. In movies, you are asked to enjoy a story that is presented to you, which you can only do in a passive manner. You have no influence and no say. You can only watch, absorb, and interpret. You don't get your choice of characters or story or anything.

Video games are a completely different medium. The entire point of playing a game is that you are in control. You aren't in full control of everything, but in most games you are essentially inserting yourself into a story, and from there you have varying degrees of freedom.

You play too many PC games. The vast majority of modern and popular console games are linear experiences, usually modeled after Hollywood movies, where you play as predefined characters. The games where you insert yourself into the story are the minority and those games almost always allow you to select your gender.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I have to seriously question the motives of people who continually make those defeatist sorts of statements. Do you think you're revealing some significant insight? Do you think it's at all helpful? Do you think anyone here doesn't know the status quo?

Oh, I'm not defeatist at all. I'm quite optimistic actually. The industry is changing, but it's not going to start at the AAA level.

Forget starting at the AAA level, AAA games are apparently going to be the last holdouts. This is nothing for anyone to be proud of.

Popular Indie games such Shantae and Child of Light have female protagonists.
Nintendo showcased several female characters for Hyrule Warriors and an all-female cast for the FPS Splatoon.
Harvest Moon allows for gay marriage. Admittedly only in Japan for fear of a higher ESRB rating in the North American version of the game, but it still counts.

Those are all positive steps, too!

You play too many PC games.

Impossible!

The vast majority of modern and popular console games are linear experiences, usually modeled after Hollywood movies, where you play as predefined characters. The games where you insert yourself into the story are the minority and those games almost always allow you to select your gender.

Again, this is nothing to be proud of. Games aping movies is stupid and always has been.

 

[Kelthaz]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Again, this is nothing to be proud of. Games aping movies is stupid and always has been.

Hah, I'd love to see you play the Uncharted games or The Last of Us. Those games are nothing more than walk forward in a straight line while pressing O to advance the text with no control over how the story develops. I'm not a fan of it either, but cinematic is what every big budget game strives to be these days.

I mostly play Indie games. Indie games are cool.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Again, this is nothing to be proud of. Games aping movies is stupid and always has been.

Hah, I'd love to see you play the Uncharted games or The Last of Us. Those games are nothing more than walk forward in a straight line while pressing O to advance the text with no control over how the story develops. I'm not a fan of it either, but cinematic is what every big budget game strives to be these days.

I mostly play Indie games. Indie games are cool.

Yeah the majority of games are linear. You could not avoid Marston's fate in Red Dead Redemption, or find another way for Isaac Clarke to fight his way off the Ishimura. I never played it but didn't Mass Effect get torn a new one 'cos they promised that every decision has consequences, but basically it boiled down to a couple of different endings?

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I don't know if this is a valid argument or not, but wouldn't a female assassin be less realistic in these kinds of games? I realize the Assassins and Templars aren't exactly mainstream citizens, but they would still be more apt to follow the societal norms of their time.

Why are there no female Assassins? Well, honestly, because the men of the time probably wouldn't allow it.

All of that doesn't matter when the games's concept is basically a VR representation of history. The concept should be able to support whatever gender, because you're not playing FutureGuy Avatar. Your Futureguy Avatar is the one playing the historical avatar, which could be technically anything, even a four-eyed monster. The historical representation wouldn't care who you are, just that you're there to undertake actions. So, wether it's realistic or not becomes moot as the game accepts you for who you're playing as.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

That'd be like playing Tomb Raider and having the option to change Lara Croft into a dude. You can't do that because Lara Corft isn't a dude. She's a woman, and that influences her character.

How would the TR games be different if your character was male?

Again, it would depend on the story they're trying to tell. For all we know the writers want Lara to get pregnant in the next game (unlikely, but still). Can't exactly do that if you make her a man.

I personally like to play games with complex characters and storylines. A person's gender is integral to who they are; it's harder to make a well-rounded character when you suddenly make their gender irrelevant.

I'm not really talking about the gameplay. I'm sure Lara Croft can fire a bow and arrow just as well as Larry Croft. I'm simply thinking about the narrative, because the story they tell is an important part of gaming to me.

 

[Yminale]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

In the end games are not art, they are a commercial activity whose sole purpose is to make money. I'm sure there are some developers who want to promote a political or artistic agenda in their work but their primary goal is to make money.

Personally I think it's asking too much of popular entertainment to "change society". Entertainment is meant to be enjoyed and consumed and then thrown away. If a game, TV show, or movie transcend this, good for them but it shouldn't be expected.

 

[FPAlpha]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

You know, it's 2014. The idea of a female protagonist being "risky" is ignorant at best.

Not when you consider the target demographic. Games are not meant to be the flagbearer of an equality movement that intentionally marches ahead to change society.

"...marches ahead"?!

Mate, the suffragette movement was over 80 sodding years ago. Women's lib about 40. Marching ahead? More like tailing behind, coughing and wheezing.

As for that nonsense about target demographics. Don't you think it's circular logic to claim that the reason games should be male centric is because games are already male centric?

There are more female gamers now than there's ever been and if studios catered to them more then sales can only go up and just MAYBE it'll help them cover the spiraling production costs they keep whining about.

Bottom line, under no circumstances should an artistic medium be declared a "boys only club". It's moronic and counter productive.

Have you actually read my full posting?

You basically repeated what i already said, especially about the number of female gamers not being insignifact anymore.

However i still don't see why the entertainment industry should become a tool for social change. To me it seems many people would like nothing more than to force others to join in the fight even if they don't want to or are not even related to the issue.

Gaming companies should not be forced to support social issues but in this case they ignore female gamers at their own peril. I don't know if a female soldier in Call of Duty makes much sense but in many other genres strong female characters would surely improve sales if they can manage to get the attention of both genders.

I have to ask, what is the purpose in defending these sorts of practices? Do people just object to having women as (possible) protagonists in games? Do people think it's clever or insightful to use "marketing" or "demographics" or "that's just how it is" as arguments?

I don't believe anyone is defending the male dominated gaming industry. Personally i'm just understanding the situation that there is a fault in the system itself.

Put yourself in the position of the studio chef who approves an investment into a major game that breaks the hundred million dollar barrier easily (Destiny, Assassins Creed Unity, GTA5 etc, basically every AAA title nowadays). Would you gamble that money in the hope women will turn out in droves like men/boys do for every GTA or Call of Duty game?

And it is a gamble because no one has proven otherwise yet or made a substantial analysis to prove that women like shooters or games like GTA as much as guys. The only thing that has been researched is that women tend to mostly gravitate to social games that you see on Facebook, i.e. Farmville and it's millions of clones (i have firsthand experience with a female friend of mine who plays such games like there's no tomorrow and is totally uninterested in shooter/action games like CoD and such).

In this way the gaming industry is like mainstream blockbuster movies.. please count off the movies that have female leads. At best they have an equally strong female main character but the story usually centers on the guy. Just look at the utterly embarrassing discussion about a solo Wonder Woman movie which could be a monstrous hit if done right but the male dominated industry apparently has no idea how to write a strong, independent woman that can take it up with Superman.

We all know why that is and it is right to fight for a change and change is happening but it's also disingenious to demand in fore to have a female character because that's also wrong. If i want to tell a story with a guy i should not be bullied into changing my story to satisfy someone else's agenda. Given our changes in society however sooner or later i may be left in the dust if other companies realize the potential of the other half of humanity and that they like to be entertained too.