Kruge vs. Chang: Your Favorite?

[enterprisecvn65]

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point.

Oh, the Klingons could be pretty darn sneaky and duplicitous on TOS. They poisoned the grain in "Tribbles," covertly supplied the Valley people with arms in "A Private Little War," were plotting and scheming in "Friday's Child," and even planted a disguised spy in the Federation's diplomatic corps ("Tribbles" again).

The whole "honorable warrior" business is more of a TNG-era thing. But Chang is more of a TOS Klingon, IMHO.

Well actually greg you bring up a great point and I have to modify my earlier comment. I haven't watched TOS as much in recent years as I'd like and I have forgotten how sneaky and treacherous Klingons could be.
I should have Kruge seemed more like the most memorable Klingons I remember played by Ansarsa and colios. They seemed pretty straightforward in their intentions and actions. Both basically said we want to conquer or kill you and there's nothing you can do about it.
Yet they were also smart and cunning and they also has an honorable side. Ansarsa showed his when he realized kirk was right and that alien was just constantly playing off the Klingons and enterprise crew against each other to feed its love of hatred and violence. He was noble enough to realize that though he hated kirk and co, he wasn't going to fight them for some creatures pleasure and he'd kill them in his own way when the time came.
Colios also was ruthless but when he realized the old guys weren't going to let the Klingons and federation fight it out, he basically said "well guess that's the way it's going to be and I have to accept it". He also said "too bad it would have been glorious ". He probably meant it in a Klingon victory way. But you also got the sense that just the thought of them having it out was something he found honorable, regardless of who won.
Kruge reminded me of those two. Ruthless and smart, but with just a touch of honor. Chang was just cut from a different cloth that wasn't as straightforward and noble as the strong TOS individuals.

 

[Ithekro]

My thought on this are always clouded by the game Klingon Academy which starred Christopher Plummer as Chang. In that game you get to know Chang's motivations and just what he was and was not willing to do for his honor and the Klingon Empire. His problem is that hsi focus was on what he called the Empire's true enemy, The Federation. he has spent decades either fighting or planning to fight th Federation in a swift decisive war. A war you play out as an up and coming commanding officer in advanced training for the Empire. You have objective, and choices to make. The Klingon equivalent to the Kobayashi Maru test involved a scenario to see how far a cadet would go to defend the Empire. Would he throw an ally to an enemy for the sake of the Empire? Would be give up his personal honor to defend the honor of the Empire? Those sorts of things. Would the cadet put his honor and glory before the Empire's.

Chang's honor was there, but the whole Praxis exploding and Gorkon's olive branch were too much for it. His life had been revolving around the Federation as the enemy of all Klingons. He could not let go. His honor refuse to let go. He was unwilling to give an inch to the Federation way of things for it went against everything he had been taught and everything he had been teaching. Better for the Empire to go out with a fight than cower under the boots of their greatest enemy. If Gorkon would not listen, than he would die. But not in a way that would lead the Empire into yet another civil war. They could not afford another internal conflict with Praxis as it was. No. Chang had to find a way to get Gorkon's faction out of the way to lead into the war Chang had always been preparing for. Thus, working with the Federation to ensure a war begins. It matter not how the war happened, just as long as it was assured to happen. The Federation would lose, as far as Chang was concerned, because of his long planned out war effort that would supposedly catch Starfleet unawares, as the Klingons would not go for their usual tactics of taking planets on the border as they had done in the past. No. A cloaked attack, deep into Federation space to set up a front that could be used to strike at the heart of the Federation. And while I don't know if the Klingons had actually managed to get one working, the plan did call for the use of a Genesis Device on Earth. Just to be sure.

As I said, clouded by the game's narrative.

 

[eyeresist]

^ That game sounds interesting. How old is it?

 

[Ithekro]

Klingon Academy. 2000. Written by D.C. Fontana

Set about two years before TUC. Starring Christopher Plummer and David Warner as Chang and Gorkon.

Basically two hours of live action footage made for a video game can be found here

 

[fonzob1]

Chang wins. He was more clever than Kruge. He orchestrated the execution of his own Chancellor and framed Kirk for it. That was just classic.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I like them both but Chang... just a tiny bit sneakier.

 

[Blip]

Chang for me. I may not be quite so enamored of his spitting chunks of Klingonese Shakespeare out at random anymore, but he was cunning, and intelligent - much like the TOS Klingons - until he sat (stood?) with his thumbs up his ass for that single torpedo to hit...

I liked the TMP Klingons and how savage they were portrayed, and I sense TPTB had maybe wanted to continue in that vein for TSFS; but with Lloyd's over-acting it felt like they'd been reduced to caricatures - paving the way for some of the TNG-era's less favorable Klingon portrayals IMO.

(Not to mention I detest to this day the shoddy blue/pink pastel shades plastered over the interior of the BOP. *shudder*)

 

[eyeresist]

(Not to mention I detest to this day the shoddy blue/pink pastel shades plastered over the interior of the BOP. *shudder*)

Yes, it took me some time to become consciously aware of that, but now I think it is one of the major "difficulties" of the film. A bizarrely wrong choice.

 

[starburst]

Close call but Kruge beats Chang, just, they are too different a character to really compare for me. One is the commander of a Bird of Prey in his prime while the other is an older General and the Chancellors Chief of Staff now no doubt use to the political game.

TUC is one of my favourite films and Chang is great, but Kruge came far closer at beating Kirk (for obvious reasons not all which can be attributed to Kruge himself).

(Not to mention I detest to this day the shoddy blue/pink pastel shades plastered over the interior of the BOP. *shudder*)

Yes, it took me some time to become consciously aware of that, but now I think it is one of the major "difficulties" of the film. A bizarrely wrong choice.

Ok I now have no idea... care to shatter my illusions lol?

 

[eyeresist]

Very simple, the interior of Kruge's ship is lit in pastel pink and blue, like a Miami Vice nightclub. You may not notice it on first viewing because you are watching the Klingons....