Kruge vs. Chang: Your Favorite?

[enterprisecvn65]

Kruge. A great villain in my favorite Star Trek movie of all time. I love the spin he puts on his lines.

A lot of people blow this off but I believe and will always maintain that Lloyd's roles as Reverand Jim and Doc Brown made it harder for some people to take him seriously as such a bad guy.

Taxi and Back to the Future were right around the same time as TSFS

TSFS came out in 1984. Back to the Future hit theaters the following year, so Doc Brown was not figuring in anyone's mind at that point. Maybe afterward on home video, but not at the time.

I can agree about Reverend Jim, even though I wasn't a fan of Taxi and never watched it until well after I saw Star Trek III.

I know BTTF came out after TSFS, but there are a lot of people who saw BTTF first and TSFS later on VHS or something and went "Hey!!!! That's loveable Doc Brown...he can't be this ruthless bad guy"

And I believe there are also people who saw TSFS first but because BTTF came out shortly after they "retconned" Kruge in their minds as Doc playing a Klingon and couldn't take him as seriously as a bad guy because Doc was so loveable.

Like I said Chris Plummer had 25 years between Captain von Trapp and Chang. I think only die hard TSOM fans would have a problem with the leader of the Von Trapps being such an evil jerk. Playing the "what if" game if TUC comes out shortly after or even before "Music" I think a lot of people wouldn't want to accept Plummer in the role of Chang.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

To me when you strip away all the dialogue, actions, acting and everything else about the two characters it comes down to this.

TOS established Klingons as the bad asses of the galaxy. They were fearsome and ruthless conquerors but were also very shrewd and cunning, not just some mindless goons. They didn't just talk the talk, but also walked the walk.

Ansara and Colios played those parts well. They were fearsome ass kicking characters, but also very intelligent. Of course TNG later toned toned down the whole "ruthless conquerors" aspect into "honorable warriors"...but in TOS the template was set.

Kruge fit this mold. He was ruthless and strong, but he also was pretty shrewd and actually outplayed Kirk's hand for a while.

Chang on the other hand wasn't particularly fearsome or strong. He obviously wasn't stupid, but not really clever in the way other Klingons had been and ultimately he comes down to a guy shooting while hiding behind what he thinks is an insurmountable advantage....Not someone who is getting in there mixing it up personally and getting his hands dirty.

To me that's the biggie. Kruge fit the established Klingon mold more than did chang.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

As much as everyone goes on (either positively or negatively) about Meyer's use of Shakespeare quotes in the script, as well as Spock claiming Holmesian ancestry, my favorite referential line is Chang's "Don't wait for the translation! Answer me now!"

Also, this jumped out at me in enterprisecvn's post from the other thread which was quoted at the top of this one:

Once he realizes he's about to be hit he just sits there saying "To be or not to be." Doesn't order evasive action, doesn't open up with everything he's got, doesn't try to ram the Enterprise. Just passively lets his ship get destroyed.

To be fair, he could see the torpedo looping around, likely put one and one together, and recognized that the torpedo would home in on his ship regardless. I think your criticism is more valid when applied to the Duras sisters in Generations (who literally do just sit there after Data triggers their cloak). There isn't even a "Where's the override?" from them when the shields drop.

Yeah but if you're in a fighter plane and a heat seeking missile locks on to you, it doesn't mean your screwed for sure. If you take evasive action and respond quickly the missile can lose your heat sig and miss.

If Kruge had ordered evasive action the torpedo might have lost the trail and just petered out....but he didn't even try he just watched it loop around and around until it was too late.

 

[EnriqueH]

To me when you strip away all the dialogue, actions, acting and everything else about the two characters it comes down to this.

TOS established Klingons as the bad asses of the galaxy. They were fearsome and ruthless conquerors but were also very shrewd and cunning, not just some mindless goons. They didn't just talk the talk, but also walked the walk.

Ansara and Colios played those parts well. They were fearsome ass kicking characters, but also very intelligent. Of course TNG later toned toned down the whole "ruthless conquerors" aspect into "honorable warriors"...but in TOS the template was set.

Kruge fit this mold. He was ruthless and strong, but he also was pretty shrewd and actually outplayed Kirk's hand for a while.

Chang on the other hand wasn't particularly fearsome or strong. He obviously wasn't stupid, but not really clever in the way other Klingons had been and ultimately he comes down to a guy shooting while hiding behind what he thinks is an insurmountable advantage....Not someone who is getting in there mixing it up personally and getting his hands dirty.

To me that's the biggie. Kruge fit the established Klingon mold more than did chang.

I don't totally disagree with you overall but I also think you're being overly harsh on Chang because Chang, love him or hate him, was something different.

As I mentioned earlier, I was a HUGE fan of Chang, and I was particularly excited to FINALLY see a different type of Klingon personality back in 1991.

The Klingon Ambassador and TNG Klingons were all cut from the same mold or took their cues from Kruge and his men IMO. (Klaa was pretty much a Kruge clone, albeit a less effective one).

So to me, Chang was a breath of fresh air.

Still, Kruge was an awesome villain. And I *still* can't make up my mind as to who to vote for.

 

[eyeresist]

I also think Chang gets votes based on people preferring TUC over TSFS in some cases, rather than looking objectively at the particular character.

I wonder if it's also to do with TOS vs. TNG. Chang looks and talks a lot more like a TOS Klingon, whereas Kruge has the bumpy head and speaks the language.

I know BTTF came out after TSFS, but there are a lot of people who saw BTTF first and TSFS later on VHS or something and went "Hey!!!! That's loveable Doc Brown...he can't be this ruthless bad guy"

I think a lot of people (like me) didn't even realise it was the same guy.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Chang. Because it's Christopher F*cking Plummer.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

To me when you strip away all the dialogue, actions, acting and everything else about the two characters it comes down to this.

TOS established Klingons as the bad asses of the galaxy. They were fearsome and ruthless conquerors but were also very shrewd and cunning, not just some mindless goons. They didn't just talk the talk, but also walked the walk.

Ansara and Colios played those parts well. They were fearsome ass kicking characters, but also very intelligent. Of course TNG later toned toned down the whole "ruthless conquerors" aspect into "honorable warriors"...but in TOS the template was set.

Kruge fit this mold. He was ruthless and strong, but he also was pretty shrewd and actually outplayed Kirk's hand for a while.

Chang on the other hand wasn't particularly fearsome or strong. He obviously wasn't stupid, but not really clever in the way other Klingons had been and ultimately he comes down to a guy shooting while hiding behind what he thinks is an insurmountable advantage....Not someone who is getting in there mixing it up personally and getting his hands dirty.

To me that's the biggie. Kruge fit the established Klingon mold more than did chang.

I don't totally disagree with you overall but I also think you're being overly harsh on Chang because Chang, love him or hate him, was something different.

As I mentioned earlier, I was a HUGE fan of Chang, and I was particularly excited to FINALLY see a different type of Klingon personality back in 1991.

The Klingon Ambassador and TNG Klingons were all cut from the same mold or took their cues from Kruge and his men IMO. (Klaa was pretty much a Kruge clone, albeit a less effective one).

So to me, Chang was a breath of fresh air.

Still, Kruge was an awesome villain. And I *still* can't make up my mind as to who to vote for.

I agree with you in general. What I forgot to mention though was Klingons up to that point had been pretty straight forward in their intents. They wanted to crush you or take something and they made no bones about it or the methods they used.

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point. Yes other Klingons after that point showed those characteristics, like the Duras family, but at the time he was the only Klingon who really came off as more dishonest and deceitful than ruthless and straightforward in their intents and actions.

I really don't dislike Chang. I thought he was very good in some scenes. Christopher Plummer of course is a great actor and the thing that annoyed me most about him, the constant Shakespeare, I can't blame on Plummer because that was obviously Meyer's fine hand at work trying to mimic Khan and/or show the audience what an intellectual he (Meyer) was.

So no Chang wasn't bad as a bad guy......he just wasn't what I feel was a strong Klingon bad guy and Kruge was.

 

[dub]

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point.

Two words: cloaking device.

 

[Greg Cox]

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point.

Oh, the Klingons could be pretty darn sneaky and duplicitous on TOS. They poisoned the grain in "Tribbles," covertly supplied the Valley people with arms in "A Private Little War," were plotting and scheming in "Friday's Child," and even planted a disguised spy in the Federation's diplomatic corps ("Tribbles" again).

The whole "honorable warrior" business is more of a TNG-era thing. But Chang is more of a TOS Klingon, IMHO.

 

[Lance]

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point.

Oh, the Klingons could be pretty darn sneaky and duplicitous on TOS. They poisoned the grain in "Tribbles," covertly supplied the Valley people with arms in "A Private Little War," were plotting and scheming in "Friday's Child," and even planted a disguised spy in the Federation's diplomatic corps ("Tribbles" again).

The whole "honorable warrior" business is more of a TNG-era thing. But Chang is more of a TOS Klingon, IMHO.

I remember that Stephen Whitfield's contemporaneous 'The Making Of Star Trek' had passages on both the Romulans and the Klingons, and if your experience of Star Trek was limited to the Next Generation era of shows, then you'd swear that the descriptions had accidentally been flipped: the Romulans were described as the proud warrior race with an ingrained honor and duty; whereas it was the Klingons were just ruthless thugs who weren't above doing nefarious things to get their way, honor be damned!

The truth is, as far as TOS is concerned, this was all 100% true. It was TNG which essentially gave each race the opposites traits: the Romulans were recast as the sneaky manipulators, whereas the Klingons were drawn with a valued code of honor.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Chang on the other hand was deceptive, sneaky and a liar.....those weren't traits that Klingons had really shown up to that point.

Oh, the Klingons could be pretty darn sneaky and duplicitous on TOS. They poisoned the grain in "Tribbles," covertly supplied the Valley people with arms in "A Private Little War," were plotting and scheming in "Friday's Child," and even planted a disguised spy in the Federation's diplomatic corps ("Tribbles" again).

The whole "honorable warrior" business is more of a TNG-era thing. But Chang is more of a TOS Klingon, IMHO.

Yeah, the Klingons had pretty much every negative trait in the book in the TOS days. Duplicity and treachery were commonplace for them.

I think the Klingon obsession with honor comes out of the rewrites in TSFS, though. The villains in that movie were originally Romulans, and they, like the TOS Romulans in "Balance of Terror", were honorable villains. When it became Kruge & Co., suddenly we had talk about "Your death will be remembered with honor" & all that stuff.

 

[martok2112]

As a villainous Klingon, Chang is my favorite.....only slightly....ever so slightly edging out Kruge.

Kruge, for me, is the basis for how I pronounce my thl'ngan...and I thought Lloyd delivered his Klingon with the right guttural effect. And, I've always felt that comedians/comedic actors make for the best dramatic actors, and Lloyd certainly did not disappoint in that area. Kruge was a "I have to be there, all for the glory of the Empire" kind of Klingon warrior.

Chang! Eloquent, clearly educated, cunning, and damn, wore a bolted on eyepatch! WOW! He must be a badass. (And as much as I like James Cawley's Star Trek stuff, I could not buy Chang losing his eye as a result of simply being bashed on the head with a big stick....canon or not). I do think the Shakespeare quotations were just a little bit jarring, but his delivery ,more than made up for it.

Someone mentioned earlier that Chang should've just opened up all guns and blasted the Enterprise apart with one fell swoop. But, Chang relished his attack on the Enterprise. He wanted to bring Kirk to his knees slowly, just before delivering the killing blow. Chang's only downfall there was in underestimating the Enterprise crew. He hid behind his technology, and paid the price. But this was Chang's bid for power....which also ties in with his conspiring with enemy agents to deter peace efforts. (Even during our Cold War, there were those who would try to deter peace because the nature of the Cold War suited them.....conspiracies or no.).

If Chang would've defeated Kirk, the more conservative elements of the Empire would've bolstered him to status where he may have succeeded Gorkon as Chancellor, usurping Azetburwho was established to be High Chancellor after the death of her father.

Kruge was brute force. Chang was cunning. Both of them, to me, great Klingon baddies. Chang just gets a slight edge in my book.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I like Chang becuase he isn't stereotypical idiot Space Viking Klingon that seemed predominant since TNG (the notable exceptions being Worf on his good days and Martok (which is why I like those two)) and is more of the more interesting TOS type Klingon.

I like Kruge becuase he's a freaking space pirate, and Star Trek needs more of those.

 

[martok2112]

I like Chang becuase he isn't stereotypical idiot Space Viking Klingon that seemed predominant since TNG (the notable exceptions being Worf on his good days and Martok (which is why I like those two)) and is more of the more interesting TOS type Klingon.

I like Kruge becuase he's a freaking space pirate, and Star Trek needs more of those.

Yeah, when it comes to good guy Klingons, Martok's my boy! (hence my screenname )

 

[JediKnightButler]

Both/Neither. They were both quite appropriate for the movies that they were in and I honestly can't quite say that I liked either one more than the other.

 

[Vger23]

I like Chang becuase he isn't stereotypical idiot Space Viking Klingon that seemed predominant since TNG (the notable exceptions being Worf on his good days and Martok (which is why I like those two)) and is more of the more interesting TOS type Klingon.

I like Kruge becuase he's a freaking space pirate, and Star Trek needs more of those.

Yeah, when it comes to good guy Klingons, Martok's my boy! (hence my screenname )

Martok is my favorite Klingon. Hands-down.

 

[urbandefault]

I like Chang becuase he isn't stereotypical idiot Space Viking Klingon that seemed predominant since TNG (the notable exceptions being Worf on his good days and Martok (which is why I like those two)) and is more of the more interesting TOS type Klingon.

I like Kruge becuase he's a freaking space pirate, and Star Trek needs more of those.

Yeah, when it comes to good guy Klingons, Martok's my boy! (hence my screenname )

Martok is my favorite Klingon. Hands-down.

Me three.

 

[suarezguy]

One thing you have to keep mind when looking at Kruge and Chang is how they were created as opponents for Kirk and by extension William Shatner.

Agreed that, given the differences in Kirk, it made sense for Chang to be a less physical, energetic, passionate villain than Kruge but I thought Shatner was fairly restrained in TUC so Plummer came off as really excessive.

 

[EnriqueH]

Both/Neither. They were both quite appropriate for the movies that they were in and I honestly can't quite say that I liked either one more than the other.

Psst.

I made the poll so you could vote both.

Which I still haven't brought myself to do, but you can if you want.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

Chang for sure.

I don't really like the TMP-onward Klingons. The nonstop "Honor this/Honor that"- is really overdone. I mean come on, how obsessed can they be about "honor"!? And the fact their wardrobe hadn't changed from the movies thru the '90's series; and they came off as space biker gangs that weren't as tough as they thought they were.

I can accept TOS Klingons as the cartoon baddies they were. But the TNG era Klingons to me were increasingly goofy. I like TNG Worf- but he was maybe the nerdiest Klingon ever. I thought they made him somewhat unlikeable on DS9, unfortunately.

So Chang gets my vote- for being intelligent and well-spoken!