Kruge (his role in Klingon affairs)

[sbk1234]

My take was that Kruge - I had heard him referred as this way back when - was a warlord. I thought that meant some kind of Klingon honor that he had been given, so he was correctly adressed as "my lord." I suppose I likened it to a knight being referred to as "sir".

As for honor, I always felt that Kruge felt the Klingons were heading down a path politically that would be bad for them, so he was acting - as he said " ... for the preservation of our race." To me, that would be considered honorable.

At worst, I'd see him as an officer in the KDF who went rogue.

 

[FormerLurker]

Considering Kruge and his entire crew were wearing standard issue Klingon military armor(and please don't suggest this was just because that's all they had in costuming, I'm going by What's On The Screen), Kruge was either an officer in the KDF who went rogue, or an officer in the KDF who was under orders to find and develop the potential of this new 'weapon.'

 

[Mr Silver]

Considering Kruge and his entire crew were wearing standard issue Klingon military armor(and please don't suggest this was just because that's all they had in costuming, I'm going by What's On The Screen), Kruge was either an officer in the KDF who went rogue, or an officer in the KDF who was under orders to find and develop the potential of this new 'weapon.'

But couldn't he have also hijacked or stolen the ship? And perhaps taken the Klingon uniforms onboard in order cover up his identity, perhaps act as if he was part of the KDF.

Maybe Kruge as an patriotic extremist, felt that his government was lacking and therefore him and his crew posed as KDF officers so if something did happen, then the government would be blamed (and in turn overthrown or replaced). This would also serve to create more tension between the Klingon empire and the Federation, thus giving Kruge what he wanted anyway.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Its always slightly perplexed me how a renegade Klingon warlord would be able to acquire a military vessel. Now obviously that might sound like I'm answering my own question, but here[[s why not. The Klingons believe in "honor" first and foremost right? Being a renegade would surely count as "dishonorable" in Kruge's case.

IIRC in one of the first drafts of TSFS, Kruge was supposed to be shown stealing a Romulan BOP. If a scene where he was shown stealing a Klingon BOP was filmed, it would have made more sense. Kruge wasn't part of the Klingon military (at least not in TSFS), that much is obvious from the way in which his crew address him as "My Lord" and not as "Captain". What confuses me is in TVH Sarek is heard telling the Klingon ambassador "Your men did kill Kirk's son". To me this statement translates as "Citizens of your homeworld" and not the ambassador's actual men.

Kruge mentions during TSFS that "our emissaries are negotiating for peace", suggesting that he was aware of internal Klingon politics, or maybe this was common knowledge. But if it was common knowledge, a renegade act such as stealing classified information and breaking the netural zone territory with a plan to acquire something believed by Kruge to be a weapon of mass destruction would surely be considered "dishonorable". Although the concept of Klingon honour wasn't really developed this far back, it stands to reason that the Klingon government wouldn't put the chance to create peace (or at least come to a beneficial agreement) in jeopardy.

Does anyone have any theories on what Kruge's affiliations actually were? Although he's clearly a patriotic extremist, he doesn't appear in the movie to be affilitated with any particular organisation. For example, taking a lone ship into enemy territory with no back, buying information from civilians and not having any real tactical experience ("They outgun us 10 to 1, why haven't they destroyed us? Which suggests that he couldn't hope to defeat the Enterprise and didn't really think through his tactics when returning fire).

Thoughts?

I think the "honor above all else" hadn't really been written in 1984. The Klingons were just bad guys and the command structure shows that. The fact that his position was defended by the Klingon Ambassador shows that the Klingons were aligned with Kruge.

 

[FormerLurker]

Considering Kruge and his entire crew were wearing standard issue Klingon military armor(and please don't suggest this was just because that's all they had in costuming, I'm going by What's On The Screen), Kruge was either an officer in the KDF who went rogue, or an officer in the KDF who was under orders to find and develop the potential of this new 'weapon.'

But couldn't he have also hijacked or stolen the ship? And perhaps taken the Klingon uniforms onboard in order cover up his identity, perhaps act as if he was part of the KDF.

Maybe Kruge as an patriotic extremist, felt that his government was lacking and therefore him and his crew posed as KDF officers so if something did happen, then the government would be blamed (and in turn overthrown or replaced). This would also serve to create more tension between the Klingon empire and the Federation, thus giving Kruge what he wanted anyway.

While possible, this is pure, blind speculation. Going by What Is On The Screen, as I did before, we see a KDF officer and his crew conspiring to steal what they believe, correctly or incorrectly, to be the plans for an unspeakable weapon that they feel the need to develop and exploit.

There is no explicit evidence of extremism in Kruge's actions, and in the very next film the appointed representative of his empire explicitly claims him as one of their own. This is overtly a demonstration of Kruge being at the least an officer in the KDF, and likely acting under orders.

 

[Mr Silver]

There is no explicit evidence of extremism in Kruge's actions,

What about clearly acknowledging the fact his government is in talks for peace with the Federation and then proceeding with his plan, despite the fact it could very easily lead to war. Bare in mind that Kruge is following an assumption not fact, he believes Genesis is a front for a WMD and only has Kirk's recording of the Genesis experiment (which doesn't exactly suggest a weapon) to fuel his ideas. He's actively seeking a conflict and this suggests he invested in his government. Look at Israel and Palestine, they have been trying to talk peace for decades, which ends up leading to constant skirmishes and territorial battles (similar to the Klingon Empire and the Federation). These battles in many occasions are fueled by extremist actions from both sides.

and in the very next film the appointed representative of his empire explicitly claims him as one of their own.

I see your point here and I'd like to add that it comes across as if the Klingon ambassador is looking to reverse the blame upon Kirk. Kirk has been trouble for the Klingons for years and when he learnt of Kirk's involvement, he probably changed his diplomatic plans to place blame on Kirk for the murders of Klingon citizens. After all, the Federation council only had Kirk and his crews word on the events at the Genesis planet (and the Ent destruction tape, which was probably recorded via probe).

This is overtly a demonstration of Kruge being at the least an officer in the KDF, and likely acting under orders.

I don't deny he might be a KDF officer, but at the same time he's never acknowledged as such. Kruge never refers to his crew by their rank, he calls them by their first name or their respective position (Gunner, Helmsman, etc). And of course, not one of the crew refers to Kruge as "Captain" or "Commander" he's simply referred to as "My Lord" which suggests any number of things, perhaps he's an organised crime leader, from a noble house or maybe its a title within an extremist sect in which Kruge may or may not have operated.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps Kruge and his crew were Klingon Imperial Intelligence operatives.

 

[Mr Silver]

Perhaps Kruge and his crew were Klingon Imperial Intelligence operatives.

Like the Tal'Shiar? That could also be a possibility. No clear rank, a small covert operation combined with Kruge using Valkris to gain a copy of the Genesis tape. Theres also the blatant "interrogation" attitudes coming from Kruge, its not something you'd expect from any ordinary Klingon.

 

[Ssosmcin]

It's funny that in both TWOK and TSFS Klingons were substituted for Romulans without any change in terminology. I assume the Klingons were used because they had the footage from TMP, but otherwise - Gamma Hydra, the neutral zone, Klingons don't take prisoners (even though they do next movie) - all those were originally Romulan attributes and attachments. Then TSFS makes their own changes. Poor Romulans really got the shaft in the movies. Even when they WERE used.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There is no explicit evidence of extremism in Kruge's actions

?

He kills his lover for reading his mail.

He executes his ship's Gunner for a "lucky shot".

 

[Nerys Myk]

There is no explicit evidence of extremism in Kruge's actions

?

He kills his lover for reading his mail.

He executes his ship's Gunner for a "lucky shot".

Thats called "just another day in the KDF".

 

[Morpheus 02]

We know that the Klingons, among others know about Genesis (since it's become a "galactic controversy".

I would postulate that Kruge is a low level command officer of a small ship. However, he's lucked out in having some connections to get REAL info on Genesis.

Now, if he turns that info over to his government, they MIGHT follow up on it, but i think either way, they will still ignore him and not reward his efforts.

But if he is able to "take Genesis form their own memory banks", he's got a lot of leverage & prestige within the Empire, and make the Federation look very bad (again, helping his status as well as justifying Klingon actions).

i am theorizing that Valkris had to die because 1) the merchant ship wouldn't agree to this mission without seeing why they are risking their lives & ship and 2) they wouldn't let her beam out without payment (and yet still have knowledge of Genesis). For such a situation, Valkris would willingly give up her life, which would be an honorable way to die (to keep the secret so that Kruge would succeed). He loved & respected her, but valued the mission more.

As for ST4....i am sure the Klingon Ambassador used things like Kirk stealing the Enterprise, and being in exile for months, as a way to spin his own people's crimes into something honorable.

i compare the Klingon ideal of honor to that of American patriotism. People sincerely believe in it, but there are some who simply use the language of patriotism for political advantage, and others use it as an excuse to break rules that would normally be followed.

i'd also suggest that the honor angle might have been added in the movie era because, well, the new Klingons look like samurai (and the ST3 Klingon music has an Asian feel), and tht's what we associate with them.

 

[sbk1234]

There is no explicit evidence of extremism in Kruge's actions

?

He kills his lover for reading his mail.

He executes his ship's Gunner for a "lucky shot".

The boy needs to switch to decaf!

 

[FormerLurker]

We know that the Klingons, among others know about Genesis (since it's become a "galactic controversy".

I would postulate that Kruge is a low level command officer of a small ship. However, he's lucked out in having some connections to get REAL info on Genesis.

Now, if he turns that info over to his government, they MIGHT follow up on it, but i think either way, they will still ignore him and not reward his efforts.

But if he is able to "take Genesis form their own memory banks", he's got a lot of leverage & prestige within the Empire, and make the Federation look very bad (again, helping his status as well as justifying Klingon actions).

i am theorizing that Valkris had to die because 1) the merchant ship wouldn't agree to this mission without seeing why they are risking their lives & ship and 2) they wouldn't let her beam out without payment (and yet still have knowledge of Genesis). For such a situation, Valkris would willingly give up her life, which would be an honorable way to die (to keep the secret so that Kruge would succeed). He loved & respected her, but valued the mission more.

As for ST4....i am sure the Klingon Ambassador used things like Kirk stealing the Enterprise, and being in exile for months, as a way to spin his own people's crimes into something honorable.

i compare the Klingon ideal of honor to that of American patriotism. People sincerely believe in it, but there are some who simply use the language of patriotism for political advantage, and others use it as an excuse to break rules that would normally be followed.

i'd also suggest that the honor angle might have been added in the movie era because, well, the new Klingons look like samurai (and the ST3 Klingon music has an Asian feel), and tht's what we associate with them.

Brilliantly and eloquently put.