Krenim vs. Dept. of Temporal Investigations

[hux]

Actually the real question is did he clean up Timeless before the episode started because it was a fantastic, possibly explosive clusterfuck before he smoothed off the edges and what we saw was what was permitted by the integrity commission

That option would re-emphasize that the federation time police don't actually give a damn about the time line (since Voyager would have been destroyed without Harry and Chakotay's meddling with time) and they simply fix what suits their own version of history (so yes OP, they're just like Annorax)

or did Braxton clean up Timeless AFTER Timeless and none of what we saw happened as we saw it, if it happened at all.

So you're saying we saw a parallel universe episode?

This option would definitely explain why Braxton suffered from temporal psychosis...i'm amazed he wasn't sat in a pool of his own excrement just repeating the word..."wibble"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The only difference between the Krenim and the TIC is the Krenim's default solution is to destroy civilizations and with the TIC, that's only the implicit result of their actions. Is one better than the other? Probably not.

I suppose you could argue that the temporal prime directive essentially says "Whatever events led up to the timeline as it exists at this moment, we're sticking with them." Which would explain why they might intervene in Future's End and Relativity and not in Timeless or Endgame. Which is really just as convenient as the original prime directive, as it says we can ignore the children who were never born because Admiral Janeway changed history but are allowed to preserve our own children.

 

[Guy Gardener]

HUX, the 29th century from the beginning of Futures End believed in one inviolable time line... But the new 29th Century from the end of Futures Timeline believed in parallel timelines.

In Relativity, we saw the relativity watch from on high as Voyager was destroyed over and over and over again, and they kept trying to create the best time line to play on into the future.

Either Earth is temporally shielded in the future, or the Federation has migrated and colonized outside of time, so that they no longer have to be concerned with time trying to destroy their foundations and their rooftops.

 

[propita]

So Annorax reset the timeline, trying to find his way “back” to his original timeline.

Is this similar to what Chakotay/Kim do? The difference being that Chakotay/Kim are intentionally resetting to just before a specific and localized event and, except for everything that happens to/because of the Voyager crew, nothing changes in the rest of the galaxy--unlike Annorax’s wiping out entire civilizations.

Here’s my main questions, though: When Annorax screws up and wipes out a civilization, then tries again, does that civilization come back? If he comes back to a point in time “after” he’s wiped out that civilization, I’m assuming “no.” What if he goes back to the same instant (blink in, blink out?) or a split second earlier?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Remember the feast Annorax made for Chuckles of all the cultures he had annihilated forever?

They were all gone for good.

Annorax doesn't time travel, well obviously he can time travel since he's been hammering at the same single year for 200 years, or his wife would have died of old age a 17 decades earlier if he had brought her back from non-existence shortly after they first used the weapon, when he is parked outside of time, then logically he should be able to enter back into time at whichever spot in future/history he feels like it, but Red chooses not to change time like that with his hands, moving shit around, when he can extract planets from time, and besides, he can't bring his wife back with regular time travel like that, because the weapon he's been using has been changing the shape of the universe 15 billion years back unto it's creation by GOD, and he can't get behind that just using his hands.

This episode was so poorly thought out that Annorax didn't even try to get behind Janeway to stop her getting temporal shields, even though temporal shields are "paradox proof" in so that it doesn't matter if she never got the shields, her continuity was fixed and unwavering as long as those shields held, but he could still attack her over and over again a minute after she got those shields from a thousand vectors.

Every time Annorax used the weapon, Janeway and her Voyager SMASHED into Janeway and Voyager that should have been in the new universe being recreated around them, and destroyed the indigenous Voyager and Janeway... You don't think that's awful? Well it's conceivably okay that one Janeway supersedes another, and one Janeway is as good as another, but what about the other 130 crewmen who are suddenly in space wondering what the hell happened to their ship because although there can only be one Voyager, it doesn't always enter into the new universe spacially where the native Voyager should be according to it's personal timeline.

(Sorry.)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Remember the feast Annorax made for Chuckles of all the cultures he had annihilated forever?

Which just revealed him to be a serial killer keeping trophies of his (enormous) victims. Annorax saying he was doing it ALL for his wife is like Walter White saying he was doing it all for his family, a morality badge to hide behind, hide from himself.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Bullshit.

If Walter just had to cook Meth that was 99.99999999999999 percent pure to bring his wife back from the dead, it really would have been about Skylar.

You may be right if he got the ball and chain back, but her eye colour was wrong, and then we get to see if he says "Close enough" or not.

 

[Drone]

So Annorax reset the timeline, trying to find his way “back” to his original timeline.

Is this similar to what Chakotay/Kim do? The difference being that Chakotay/Kim are intentionally resetting to just before a specific and localized event and, except for everything that happens to/because of the Voyager crew, nothing changes in the rest of the galaxy

How can one objectively say that? Your caveat "because of the Voyager crew" covers a wide swath of possibilities, from the potential of a missed encounter that the ship didn't make because of the distance they covered in their rejiggered jump to the unknowable impact that their awareness of the actions of their future benefactors might engender.


Needless to say, Chakotay and Hardass Kim weren't concerned, but there are any number of ways that they might have wrought less than salutary effects on a large
scale.


Thinking of this in terms of being a precursor to Admiral Janeway's strategem in Endgame, might one say that Harry actually made his mark by at least encouraging her to move forward with her plan by virtue of his example? Assuming that the events even occured that way in her timeline. Of course we all know that Janeway hardly needs any outside impetus to steam unalterably forward if she is convicted of the rectitude of her ideas!!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I seriously doubt Walter knows Skylar's eye colour.

"What color are my eyes Walt. Tell me. Tell me. You DON'T KNOW do you."

"They're uh uh.."

:: stares at Skylar's sweater, what color would that sweater go with..::

"They're green."

"You're full of shit Walt."

Now was he full of shit because he is wrong or full of shit because she knows that he didn't know but has somehow deduced under pressure the correct answer. Not that it matters because no matter how right he is ultimately she knows he is full of shit and he knows she knows that and on and on for 5 seasons it goes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Annorax was not trying to restore the timeline, and could not restore the timeline just be continually subtracting more and more matter, events, persons and confluences...

What he was trying to do was restore the borders of the Empire, and possibly the size of the population inside those Borders, no matter how unfamiliar and strange the history was that brought the Imperium to that familiar state as long as they dominate or decimate their neighbours.

Which is a lie Annorax tells the crew... He just wants his wife back.

Seriously though, what did he think was going to happen the first time they used the weapon? She could have survived and never met or fallen in love with him, or she did meet and fall in love with Annorax who is now just another dude hanging out in the new universe married to his wife.

Ridiculous that the leaders of the Krenim would sign off on this.

Being murdered as history rewrote itself.

 

[publiusr]

It would have been a handy way to eliminate damage done by the Borg, pre Caeliar.

Just do an archive of Borg tech--save it from history being re-written and send it to memory alpha.

This device is perfect for protecting the time line. go back in the timeline, do what you want, harvest the tech/data, then have the weapon ship eliminate itself, and the harvested knowledge of this past can co-exist with the restored timeline.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As long as trillions of trillions of trillions of people don't mind being treated like raped labrats to satisfy one political bodies indulgences.

Janeway put a coalition together from a number of worlds near the end of Year of Hell who were mad as hell and were not going to take it any more.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Has anyone here cared to mention that the Krenim who altered history for their own ends were Imperium renegades from an "erased" alternate timeline who end up getting erased and reset? We barely see the prime timeline Krenim in the conclusion of "Year of Hell, Part II" and the minds of some assimilated Krenim in Seven's mind in "Infinite Regress".

I wonder though. It would appear in the conclusion of "Year of Hell, Part II" that Annorax did not develop the temporal weapon ship in the prime timeline. And Voyager encountered a Krenim patrol who warned them off instead of firing on them as in "Before and After". So do the prime Krenim have chroniton torpedo technology? If they have mastery of time-based weapons in the prime timeline, then shouldn't the Borg have acquired time travel/starship weapon advancements from that? Because "Infinite Regress" showed that the Borg had assimilated Krenim by 2375. However as pointed out in DTI: Watching the Clock, Temporal Accords enforcers work hard to prevent the Borg from acquiring time travel.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes.

That's been mentioned.

The materials used to to build the weapon were erased from time, some of which might have been very exotic and incredibly rare. Rare enough perhaps that it could take generations more to harvest more, if ever.

 

[Lord Manitou]

After awhile, Annoraxes timeship became a drug for captain and crew. Poor Annorax suspended in his 200 year mission that did nothing except give him the willy-nilly's. He desired to bring his ship in to port and end the mission except he couldn't trust the incursion. A true lack of faith.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He wanted his wife back.

No drug, no metaphor, no transference.

However...

Did he want her back because she was lovely, or because the universe was cockblocking him?

Things you are not allowed to have seem more precious than they really are.

 

[hux]

I'm bumping threads like crazy tonight

Something Guy Gardener said about time police in the 24th century and the 29th century got me thinking

Presumably these various time guardians all liaise with each other somehow. I mean if there's an incursion in the 23rd century then who goes there to fix it? The time police from the 24th century, from the 25th century, from the 26th century, from the 27th century, from the 28th century or the time police from the 29th century?

These different time agency's must communicate with one another otherwise they'd all turn up at the same incursion in the 23rd century (thousands of ships from countless eras appearing) this doesn't seem to happen so they must be aware of each others actions and have regular meetings or something

And if something changes in the past then how would they know (reality would change around them) so are they all on ships that exist outside of time?

 

[Shon T'Hara]

I'm bumping threads like crazy tonight

Something Guy Gardener said about time police in the 24th century and the 29th century got me thinking

Presumably these various time guardians all liaise with each other somehow. I mean if there's an incursion in the 23rd century then who goes there to fix it? The time police from the 24th century, from the 25th century, from the 26th century, from the 27th century, from the 28th century or the time police from the 29th century?

These different time agency's must communicate with one another otherwise they'd all turn up at the same incursion in the 23rd century (thousands of ships from countless eras appearing) this doesn't seem to happen so they must be aware of each others actions and have regular meetings or something

Maybe they have a headquarter in, say, the 24th Century, and once they decide who should handle a problem, they just leave a message to be opened at the appropriate time.

And if something changes in the past then how would they know (reality would change around them) so are they all on ships that exist outside of time?

If you go by the novelverse, the DTI have an archive that's encased in some kind of quantum vault and will notify them if any discrepancies crop up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They build Starbases outside of time, and temporally shield planets.

You are only thinking about how the temporal authorities of the Federation co-operate through out the ages with other temporal Authorities of the Federation? But what happens when the Romulans defeat the Federation in the 31st century? Does the Star Empire pretend to still be the Federation to the earlier humanic time zones so that their recent past (the domination of Earth) will still come to pass? Or do they go back and conquer all history one day at a time? Yeah, filing their ears down and lying a lot does seems much easier.

As far as the novels went, the current day blokes we saw in Deep Space Nine met with Daniels from Enterprise on occasion and accepted orders from him, since they still believed that he represented a future version of the Federation who had their best interests at heart. Lucsly (One of the pen pushers from Deep Space Nine.) wanted to put Janeway's face through a plate glass window because she was a horribly evil selfish time criminal, but Daniels wouldn't let him because her time crimes were the only thing that stopped certain Borg victory in every other timeline they had ever monitored, and coincidentally was established & necessary history in his own timeline, and she still had some important things to do that wouldn't be possible from a jail cell.

Hux. Cloaking shields. Invisibility is an important tool to make sure you don't fuck up the past. Only a higher order of science can see through a lower order of sciences cloaking shield. Yes 400 ships might show up to each prickly wrinkle in time, but the least advanced ship thinks that it is alone, and the only the most advanced ship really knows how many ships are present, but no one is absolutely sure if they are the most advanced ship.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm bumping threads like crazy tonight

Something Guy Gardener said about time police in the 24th century and the 29th century got me thinking

Presumably these various time guardians all liaise with each other somehow. I mean if there's an incursion in the 23rd century then who goes there to fix it? The time police from the 24th century, from the 25th century, from the 26th century, from the 27th century, from the 28th century or the time police from the 29th century?

These different time agency's must communicate with one another otherwise they'd all turn up at the same incursion in the 23rd century (thousands of ships from countless eras appearing) this doesn't seem to happen so they must be aware of each others actions and have regular meetings or something

And if something changes in the past then how would they know (reality would change around them) so are they all on ships that exist outside of time?

You want to read this fantastic novel:

Loosely, jurastiction goes downtime (into the future) - the further ahead a time cop comes from, they get control of the case. Altho things get a little sticky when...

Spoiler: watching the clock

...it's revealed that the 29th century (Voyager) and 30th century (Enterprise) time cops don't actually know if they're from the same future.