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kosh said WHAT!? Seriouslly?? WTF?!

Guy Gardener

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
So, I'm upgrading replacing my Babylon 5 collection and I end up with a "Special presentation" version of The Gathering (The movie pilot) where they take away the horrible guitars in the beginning, remove the bit of Londo's voice over where he claims that Del Varner was the most dangerous man to ever step foot on Babylon 5 (It's so odd seeing Ed Wasser not as Morden as a tech on the command deck.) and there's this whole odd sidebar where Sinclair takes Lyta on a ridealong for a dust bust (hehe, that's funny, feels pleasant steeping through the mouth too, try saying that three times quickly. "Dust bust, dust bust, dust bust" ...Moving along!) and I was half expecting to see the scene where Laurel admits she's the sleeper agent working for the psi corps, but that may have been there since I did fall asleep for ten minutes in the middle BUT!!!!

Here's the fucked uppedist...

Kosh greets Sinclair by saying :"Entilzah Valen"

TO HIS FACE!

WHAT THE FUCK!?

Fuck Greedo shooting first!

I mean, I've always been %99m certain about the Vorlons were putting on a pageant, but this makes the Vorlon fleet gathering to smelt Babylon 5 even more ridiculous if they had been waiting for Sinclair to come into his own for the last thousand years, and they probably knew about the assassination attempt and who was really responsible... Which means perhaps like watchers in the marvel universe who observe the really cosmic stuff in person, that the Vorlon Fleet was there to respect the birth (Vorlon babyshower?) of Valen and not to get revenge for the death of Kosh but they were doing that war dance as a ruse because it was all predestined and they needed to comply with Valen's prophecies or everything would come unbound.

Unless Kosh didn't tell them what was going to happen to him or that Sinclair was Valen?

Or Sinclair didn't tell Kosh he was almost going to be killed?

I mean that would scare the shit out of the Vorlons if this time around that Valen was working for the Shadows (because they got a keeper on him in middleschool?) and that it was going to be dark Valen who rode Babylon 4 back into the dark recesses of history to win the war for the other side.

but then, we know now that it doesn't matter who wins.

The Shadows were not trying to to rule or enslave, and they were not trying to directly destroy the Vorlons either. they like the shodows were just trying to make the younger races better and smarter in the way they thought best, and even if they won (Although coming back with three times as many ships as was described by the alert from mirror universe Ivanova before Sheridan took the white star back through time would have meant a shorter war and more death in the present before the shadows again went back to sleep for another thousand years,) life goes on (for who ever survives?) once the shadows go back to sleep.
 
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Yeah, we're too busy wondering why Delenn looks like a guy to worry about things Kosh says.
 
Hmm, past the obvious remarks about Delenn being on her period (Soulmates alrady told us they don't breed like that. Yet?)... What if that was a timeline (I think the new version also removed the decompression from hypersace period as well.) is one where Sinclair didn't go back in time and that is what the Minbari would have looked like if Valen hadn't taken back b4 and jumped into their gene pool dick first.

Maybe the forces of light sent another agent back who did the intermarrying thing, who mostly looked like "that", who is I still do not think Zath'ras.

had another thought the other day while watching nit he beginning.

Lenir said that every generation is less magnificent than the last because the best minbari souls are being reborn as humans. My competing theory is that each generation is less than the last because the human DNA in the lot of them has interbred with itself so many times that not only is the humanity inside the lot of them building to a critical mass, but it's retarding their superior Minabri intellect and strength because not only is it merely human but more so that it's Deliverancian human by this stage.
 
The "Entil'zha Valen' was added for the Special Edition of "The Gathering" and wasn't spoken aloud, it was Kosh's internal dialogue according to JMS.

Jan
 
Internal dialogue?

Hodgepodge.

And we heard the internal dialogue of how many other people throughout the course of the show?

Methinks the man is back peddling.

What would have been hilarious is if when Kosh "thought" aloud "Entilzah Valen" that the Minbari assassin posing as Sinclair replied "Gesundheit".

:)

But honestly if Kosh said "that" to a warrior cast Minbari, then that Minbari (unless he was batshit from the changeling net already.) must have been curious/confused by such an utterance since he (almost) knows who Valen is and does know what an Entilzah is, that his only reply should have been the Minbari equivalent of "Whatchu talking about Willis?!?"
 
Internal dialogue?

Hodgepodge.

And we heard the internal dialogue of how many other people throughout the course of the show?

Methinks the man is back peddling.
Think what you like but the fact is that the line wasn't in the original version and was added for the TNT re-edit and it was right after that aired that JMS posted:

>So Kosh recognizes that Sinclair is the same person he knew 1000 years in
>the past as Valen; since Kosh didn't know that this wasn't really Sinclair
>(else why greet him so?) wouldn't this have given Sinclair a dangerous
>foreknowledge?

Internal dialogue...what he was thinking, his reaction.

jms

Jan
 
Consider this possibility: Kosh didn't know that Sinclair was Valen until he saw him face to face and didn't know about the time loop. When he saw Sinclair he was like "holy shit, Valen, what are you doing here buddy, and why are you human, and alive?"

We really don't know how much Valen told the vorlons and we know damned well know that the Grey Council didn't tell them that Sinclair had Valen's soul. The only one who actually has to know about the time loop before hand is Zathras, and he isn't exactly forthcoming with straight answers.
 
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I love him... The One... You are the one who is... you are the one who was and you are the one who will be....
I do love that entity...
 
Yeah it doesn't really fit, the plot OR the overall story. Honestly it just seems like fan-service, something to throw the fans who stuck through the years and saw the revelation out (since I believe this "new" version of the pilot aired on TNT between S4 and 5).
 
It is basically a bit of fanservice inserted into the pilot; since JMS hadn't come up with the idea of Sinclair being Valen when "The Gathering" was made, he wanted to add a retroactive nod to the idea. The 'oh, it was Kosh's internal thoughts' is as good a handwave as any as to how it's supposed to make sense.

The only one who actually has to know about the time loop before hand is Zathras, and he isn't exactly forthcoming with straight answers.
Neither were Vorlons. I'm sure Kosh and Zathras could have a very interesting and lenghthy conversation about everything and nothing and neither would be the wiser.
 
It is basically a bit of fanservice inserted into the pilot; since JMS hadn't come up with the idea of Sinclair being Valen when "The Gathering" was made, he wanted to add a retroactive nod to the idea. The 'oh, it was Kosh's internal thoughts' is as good a handwave as any as to how it's supposed to make sense.

I often wonder what the original reasoning was for Kosh extending himself before JMS decided that Sinclair and Valen were one and the same.
 
He's just being polite? (Besides he still had the encounter suit on, so what would that extension have looked like to Sinclair?)

Another reason for adding the line is to, well, give Kosh something to say. Kosh in the original pilot, despite being a major plot point, never says anything at all.
 
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny....

Or, at least the next few weeks, anyway.
 
The 'oh, it was Kosh's internal thoughts' is as good a handwave as any as to how it's supposed to make sense.
I don't know. I think that Kosh being genuinely surprised to see a human and looked exactly like his old war buddy is a bit more plausible.
 
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