Koran burning

[Robert D. Robot]

Second, the term "victory mosque" is inaccurate and obviously intended to be prejudicial, and "at Ground Zero" is also inaccurate in conventional usage.

Yes, I really wish we could drop all the snarky and misleading descriptions and names that people at the extremes in this debate are using. It isn't helpful, and it keeps us from dealing with the facts in a constructive way. I'm not sure if such people are being gleefully disingenuous or just proudly ignorant.

It is not AT the area called "Ground Zero", but -yes- it is NEAR that site. Also, from the point of view of someone cruising past Alpha Centauri, the location of the proposed Islamic center is NEAR Neptune. Please stop being ridiculous.

In our proud "Home of the Brave", most of the people shaking with fear (and/or rage) have never set foot in NYC and have no idea what they are talking about
when it comes to NYC geography, demographics or attitudes.

 

[Davros]

Second, the term "victory mosque" is inaccurate and obviously intended to be prejudicial, and "at Ground Zero" is also inaccurate in conventional usage.

Yes, I really wish we could drop all the smarmy and misleading descriptions and names that people at the extremes in this debate are using. It isn't helpful, and it keeps us from dealing with the facts in a constructive way. I'm not sure if people are being disingenuous or just proudly ignorant.

It is NEAR the area being called "Ground Zero". From the point of view of someone cruising by Alpha Centauri, the location of the proposed Islamic center is also NEAR Neptune. Stop being ridiculous.

In our proud "Home of the Brave", most of the people shaking with fear (and/or rage) have never set foot in NYC and have no idea what they are talking about
when it comes to what NYC geography, demographics or attitudes.

But how else will they drum up unjustified fear?

 

[SinglePurpose]

But if the extremist fringe twat wanting to stir up trouble is an Al Qaeda defender wanting to build a victory mosque at Ground Zero, we claim it's a right under free speech, religious freedom, etc, and denounce opposition to the incitement as bigotry.

First of all, very few are saying that people don't have the right, under the 2nd Amendment, to burn a Qu'ran or any other book.

No, but they are saying the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to shoot the Qu'ran.

 

[sidious618]

The burning may now be back on as the Islamic Community Center is saying no such deal to move their building was made. At this point I hope they do move the community center.

I hope they move it closer to ground zero.

 

[Marc]

If a tiny mosque decided to host a Bible-burning, nobody would care. So I can't be bothered to care what some nobody is going to do or not do to a Qur'an.

no if a tiny mosque had a bible burning a shit storm the likes of which you you've never seen would errupt.

it would again prove my theory that when you get down to it there's not much differnce between an islamofascit and a fundementalist Christian - they even believe in the same God (which they also share with the Jews).

 

[JarodRussell]

Probably half the people getting really upset and angry about someone burning a book will meet on high noon to stone the fuck out of an innocent woman that has been raped. So...

 

[Marc]

Probably half the people getting really upset and angry about someone burning a book will meet on high noon to stone the fuck out of an innocent woman that has been raped. So...

on both sides - same as both sides would glad see gays suffer the same fate.

 

[JarodRussell]

If a tiny mosque decided to host a Bible-burning, nobody would care. So I can't be bothered to care what some nobody is going to do or not do to a Qur'an.

no if a tiny mosque had a bible burning a shit storm the likes of which you you've never seen would errupt.

it would again prove my theory that when you get down to it there's not much differnce between an islamofascit and a fundementalist Christian - they even believe in the same God (which they also share with the Jews).

Haha, not really.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ina-church-plans-Halloween-Bible-burning.html

Okay, it wasn't a mosque, but nobody cared.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

If you want to have a good laugh do some internet searching and see what is being reported in the British and European papers regarding comments by officials and by Jones' former followers from the charismatic Christian church he formed and ran in Germany until he was ousted two years ago. This is no person to be held up as a model of virtue.

Given his past behavior and his need to be at the center of attention, the mess he is pulling us into is suiting him just fine.

 

[JarodRussell]

Given his past behavior and his need to be at the center of attention, the mess he is pulling us into is suiting him just fine.

Come on, it's not like he will be responsible for the next attack that happens. That would happen anyway, they need no further reasons to blow themselves up.

 

[Marc]

If a tiny mosque decided to host a Bible-burning, nobody would care. So I can't be bothered to care what some nobody is going to do or not do to a Qur'an.

no if a tiny mosque had a bible burning a shit storm the likes of which you you've never seen would errupt.

it would again prove my theory that when you get down to it there's not much differnce between an islamofascit and a fundementalist Christian - they even believe in the same God (which they also share with the Jews).

Haha, not really.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ina-church-plans-Halloween-Bible-burning.html

Okay, it wasn't a mosque, but nobody cared.

trust the would. google a piece of art called piss christ and other such works - maybe not the bible but enough to see all sorts of threats made - okay not quite a bible enough to get the Christians worked up about sacrilege. Also look at the shitsstorm around the last temptation of Christ.

Hell even Lloyd-Webber's JCS was blasted for being sacrilegious and one theatre in Argentina where it was going to run was fire bombed.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Given his past behavior and his need to be at the center of attention, the mess he is pulling us into is suiting him just fine.

Come on, it's not like he will be responsible for the next attack that happens. That would happen anyway, they need no further reasons to blow themselves up.

Perhaps not- but every little bit helps.

I hope it ends up that we won't have reason to find out...

 

[Maestro]

The right to do something is vastly different than whether or not it's right to do something. No one is telling these folks that they can't burn the Quran. People are telling them that they shouldn't. Big difference.

As for me, I'll be celebrating Burn the Koran Day by inviting over some Muslims who teach with my wife at the local college, and burning copies of Sarah Palin's autobiography.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Could Jones' actions not be interpreted as an incitement to riot*? Then they would be illegal.

*Not for his own followers, apparently, but the other side. If he were allowed to burn these Qurans, Muslims would riot. So it works out to the same thing, really.

 

[gturner]

Christians can't be too upset about burning Bibles because we burn lots of them. For one thing, it's a good way to dispose of them, and if we didn't we'd be up to our eyeballs in worn out copies. In times past, Bible burning was organized and common-place, with Catholics burning Protestant Bibles whose content they didn't approve of (some early Protest Bibles contained denunciations of the Catholic Church and Catholic doctrine) and John Calvin burning not only all copies of the Servetus Bible his followers could lay their hands on, but even burning Michael Servetus at the stake for good measure. And we've never stopped. Just last year a church in North Carolina held a Bible burning for Halloween, billed as burning "Perversions of God's Word" to try and rid the world of all the Satanic Bibles (as the church called them), which are all Bibles that aren't the King James Version.

Even the US military burned Bibles in Afghanistan to keep them from being distributed, and a bunch of Algerians are on Youtube burning a Bible to help them in a soccer match against Egypt.

 

[gturner]

Could Jones' actions not be interpreted as an incitement to riot*? Then they would be illegal.

*Not for his own followers, apparently, but the other side. If he were allowed to burn these Qurans, Muslims would riot. So it works out to the same thing, really.

There would have to be Muslims present at his burning, and present in numbers where a riot becomes a real possibility. The threat must be real and apparent, not hypothetical, otherwise Bush could've banned every single anti-war protest by claiming that someone might take offense at a burning flag, an upside-down flag, or a "Bush=Hitler!" sign, causing a fight that explodes into a riot.

We are definitely on the slippery slope of having clever government officials thinking up ways to stop speech they find unpopular, such as the fire department standing by to arrest the church members for not having a burn permit. If they can pull that now, when the burning is unpopular, it sets a precedent for doing it whenever anyone sets fire to the US flag - and you know that surely 95% of all fire chiefs in America would love to arrest flag burning hippies on trumped up charges.

 

[Saga]

i never really understood burning things, especially books, simply because you disagree with them. i guess these people never really learned from Fahrenheit 451. in fact, they most likely burned it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Could Jones at least be held accountable for the violence that results from his burning of the Koran? Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of that speech.

 

[paudemge]

Could Jones' actions not be interpreted as an incitement to riot*? Then they would be illegal.

*Not for his own followers, apparently, but the other side. If he were allowed to burn these Qurans, Muslims would riot. So it works out to the same thing, really.

No, being offended is no excuse for violence.

It would be like some one preaching about abortion being the devils work and somebody heard the sermon and went out and killed an abortion doctor, there is not direct link.
If the preacher preached about Dr Smith doing the work of satan by performing abortions and should be killed, and somebody listened to this and then went out and killed Dr Smith, the preacher then could have some culpability.

 

[gturner]

Could Jones at least be held accountable for the violence that results from his burning of the Koran? Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences of that speech.

That's another slippery slope would shut down two thirds of Hollywood and have Al Gore rotting in jail for inspiring the rabid behavior of last week's Discovery Channel nutcase.

Reverend Jones is not issuing fighting words, he's not sawing a screaming Muslim's head off while chanting verses (I used to be a major host of the video of the murder of Daniel Pearl, as most other hosts ran into bandwidth issues). He's not burning the US President in effigy as was done almost daily at anti-war rallies and throughout the Middle East. He's not even calling for the beheading of a Dutch politician (as an prominent Australian cleric is doing).

He's just burning the Koran like he would burn any non King James Version of the Bible or any Led Zeppelin album. He's not burning all the Korans (there are billions of copies) and he's not burning very many Korans.

But out of fear of a Muslim reaction over what a private church does, the US government is jumping up and down, trying to find any means at their disposal to squelch the guy.

If they'd have spent 1% as much effort at stopping the Victory Mosque, they would've taken the land under Eminent Domain as defined by the Supreme Court's Kelo decision, pointing out that a topless furry bar would generate more tourism dollars and thus tax revenues.