Kobayashi Maru?

[TIN_MAN]

This thread contains minor spoilers about the new movie, so if you haven't seen it you may not want to read further? Also, apologies if this has already been discussed, but I didn't see a thread on this topic, so I thought I'd start one. Anywho, was it my Imagination or did we actually see the Kobayashi Maru on the simulator screen in the new Star TreK movie? If so, should we assume that the spec's we saw in ST:TWOK are for the same ship? I Know there's no reason necessarily to do so, but considering the paucity of info on this ship, this may be the only way we'll ever get complete intel on it. So I'm calling on all KM fans out there to help me out here.

 

[captcalhoun]

yes, it was seen in the background of the main viewer as we saw the Klingons firing.

 

[Mr. B]

This is all we know about the ship and I don't think the new movie really said much of anything about the vessel so there's no reason to assume any contradictions.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twok/ch1/twok0010.jpg

 

[Crewman47]

The only difference I noticed was that in TWOK the Maru appears to be a civilian run ship but in STXI they gave it a USS designation implying that it was a Starfleet ship.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Yes, I noticed Uhura called it U.S.S. too.

Pretty much torpedoed a recent (and decent, imo) Enterprise novel of the same name.

Starfleet either based the simulation on a not too historical event (same era as the Kelvin disaster), or else its a completely fictional program devised by Spock.

 

[barnaclelapse]

I always thought it was based on a historical event, but I guess that may not be the case.

 

[Timo]

I'd assume the simulation is either slightly or then drastically different every time. Otherwise, the cadets who have done it would simply tell the cadets who haven't what to expect and how to perform.

That is, there'd be a Kobayashi Maru involved, because the characters in STXI call it the Kobayashi Maru test. (Note that they don't do that in ST2: there, it's merely the "No-win scenario", and plausibly might involve a differently named ship for each different set of cadets. But the STXI writers never caught that subtlety.)

However, sometimes the Kobayashi Maru could be a Starfleet transport, at other times a civilian fuel carrier, at yet other times a yacht, or a passenger ship, or even a colony. The threat could be Klingons, or Romulans, or space amoebae. The original inspiration could still be a historical event, but the somewhat sadistic instructors would modify the scenario as they saw fit. Similar things are done today in military training: "What if Custer had packed a Gatling gun?"; "What if the French had flown Hurricanes when the Nazis invaded?"; "What if Spain had joined the Axis states?".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RAMA]

 

[lceb]

Pretty much torpedoed a recent (and decent, imo) Enterprise novel of the same name.

I'd assume the simulation is either slightly or then drastically different every time. Otherwise, the cadets who have done it would simply tell the cadets who haven't what to expect and how to perform.

That is, there'd be a Kobayashi Maru involved, because the characters in STXI call it the Kobayashi Maru test. (Note that they don't do that in ST2: there, it's merely the "No-win scenario", and plausibly might involve a differently named ship for each different set of cadets. But the STXI writers never caught that subtlety.)

However, sometimes the Kobayashi Maru could be a Starfleet transport, at other times a civilian fuel carrier, at yet other times a yacht, or a passenger ship, or even a colony. The threat could be Klingons, or Romulans, or space amoebae. The original inspiration could still be a historical event, but the somewhat sadistic instructors would modify the scenario as they saw fit. Similar things are done today in military training: "What if Custer had packed a Gatling gun?"; "What if the French had flown Hurricanes when the Nazis invaded?"; "What if Spain had joined the Axis states?".

Timo Saloniemi

I suppose they started using an historical event , so they keep the same name to the test and this could be what happened in the book.

And, of course, what's the use of a test if it always remains the same?
However, I'm not sure I remember well, the test on TWOC and on ST XI was more or less the same and the ship was called USS Kobayashi Maru on both cases, no?

 

[captcalhoun]

the test is mentioned as being reprogrammed and altered in some of the novels; Captain Calhoun in the New Frontier novel 'Stone and Anvil' faces off with Romulan warbirds. another novel featured Wesley using a KM test on the E-D with other aliens (forget who and which book).

(side note, Calhoun actually destroys the ship. he figures it's a Romulan trap and blows the freighter, fires on the warbirds and then runs)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

However, I'm not sure I remember well, the test on TWOC and on ST XI was more or less the same and the ship was called USS Kobayashi Maru on both cases, no?

In TWOK, it was just Kobayashi Maru. No prefix.

And in the ENT novel, where we see the real events that this scenario was based on:

Spoiler: ENT

The ship also has no prefix. It's actually a retrofitted old Klingon freighter. Although Kojiro Vance is the captain, as TWOK said. He's also a total prick.

 

[Sci]

However, I'm not sure I remember well, the test on TWOC and on ST XI was more or less the same and the ship was called USS Kobayashi Maru on both cases, no?

In TWOK, it was just Kobayashi Maru. No prefix.

And in the ENT novel, where we see the real events that this scenario was based on, the ship also has no prefix. It's actually a retrofitted old Klingon freighter. Although Kojiro Vance is the captain, as TWOK said. He's also a total prick.

Those aren't really spoilers, since it's in the title of the book.

But, yeah, the ENT novel Kobayashi Maru features the Kobayashi Maru, a civilian commercial vessel created from a retrofitted Klingon frighter, captained by a Human named Kojiro Vance who has the Kobayashi Maru's home port registered as a foreign planet to avoid United Earth government and Earth Cargo Authority regulations.

 

[nx1701g]

the test is mentioned as being reprogrammed and altered in some of the novels; Captain Calhoun in the New Frontier novel 'Stone and Anvil' faces off with Romulan warbirds. another novel featured Wesley using a KM test on the E-D with other aliens (forget who and which book).

(side note, Calhoun actually destroys the ship. he figures it's a Romulan trap and blows the freighter, fires on the warbirds and then runs)

We also saw a pseudo Kobayashi Maru on Voyager. In Learning Curve Tuvok has the Maquis crewmembers who aren't fitting in participate in a holographic simulation where they have to rescue a Ferengi ship from a Romulan Warbird.

 

[137th Gebirg]

In the screencaps, it looks like the KM is huge, as the D7's (I refuse to call them "Warbirds") fly in front of it and still look small.

Several unofficial schematics of this ship have popped up over the years. There's FASA's take on it: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_lotusflower.jpg the "Lotus Flower" class (1982)

Then there's this one: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_kobyashimaru.jpg by Roger Sørenson & Starstation Aurora (1983) that looks like a standard Fed design.

This one is my favorite, as it hearkens to its Klingon origins: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/klingon/neutronicfuel_hasparath.jpg by David Nielsen (1983)

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

In the screencaps, it looks like the KM is huge, as the D7's (I refuse to call them "Warbirds") fly in front of it and still look small.

Several unofficial schematics of this ship have popped up over the years. There's FASA's take on it: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_lotusflower.jpg the "Lotus Flower" class (1982)

Then there's this one: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_kobyashimaru.jpg by Roger Sørenson & Starstation Aurora (1983) that looks like a standard Fed design.

This one is my favorite, as it hearkens to its Klingon origins: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/klingon/neutronicfuel_hasparath.jpg by David Nielsen (1983)

Out of those 3 I prefer the first one, "Lotus Flower" Class. Someone created a 3d model of it for the Starfleet Command computer game (for free) which I enjoy using. I can post some screen shots from within the game later if anyone is interested seeing it.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Praetor]

"U.S.S." took me by surprise, but then again, why not a United Starship?

In the screencaps, it looks like the KM is huge, as the D7's (I refuse to call them "Warbirds") fly in front of it and still look small.

Several unofficial schematics of this ship have popped up over the years. There's FASA's take on it: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_lotusflower.jpg the "Lotus Flower" class (1982)

Then there's this one: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/neutronicfuel_kobyashimaru.jpg by Roger Sørenson & Starstation Aurora (1983) that looks like a standard Fed design.

This one is my favorite, as it hearkens to its Klingon origins: http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/klingon/neutronicfuel_hasparath.jpg by David Nielsen (1983)

I like the second design. I think that it may have inspired the version in the film.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I'd assume the simulation is either slightly or then drastically different every time. Otherwise, the cadets who have done it would simply tell the cadets who haven't what to expect and how to perform.

That is, there'd be a Kobayashi Maru involved, because the characters in STXI call it the Kobayashi Maru test. (Note that they don't do that in ST2: there, it's merely the "No-win scenario", and plausibly might involve a differently named ship for each different set of cadets. But the STXI writers never caught that subtlety.)

However, sometimes the Kobayashi Maru could be a Starfleet transport, at other times a civilian fuel carrier, at yet other times a yacht, or a passenger ship, or even a colony. The threat could be Klingons, or Romulans, or space amoebae. The original inspiration could still be a historical event, but the somewhat sadistic instructors would modify the scenario as they saw fit. Similar things are done today in military training: "What if Custer had packed a Gatling gun?"; "What if the French had flown Hurricanes when the Nazis invaded?"; "What if Spain had joined the Axis states?".

Timo Saloniemi

uh...
It's called "no win scenario" later in the film, but Spock does say earlier "The Kobyashi Maru scenario often wreaks havoc on students and equpment"

 

[BenRoethig]

Judging by what we saw, I think the KM test was changed in part because of the Kelvin incident. The civilian freighter S.S. Kobayshi Maru was replaced by starship U.S.S. Kobayashi Maru.

 

[Timo]

uh...It's called "no win scenario" later in the film, but Spock does say earlier "The Kobyashi Maru scenario often wreaks havoc on students and equpment"

Ah, true.

We could still argue that the no-win test only sporadically involves a Kobayashi Maru, and that other scenarios are also used in that test - but that those other scenarios don't wreak such a havoc. Who knows, perhaps Admiral Kirk or Captain Spock picked this particular scenario for the month's no-win test in commemoration of the former's birthday? Spock's commentary would then be a wink-wink, nudge-nudge on Kirk's original performance in the test. Which it's probably supposed to be in any case.

Now, one wonders how Kirk cheated "the first time around", and why. The different timelines apparently didn't make that big a difference on this particular instance of his life...

Out of those 3 I prefer the first one, "Lotus Flower" Class.

At first sight, it doesn't quite match the ST2 onscreen dimensions. But curiously, if you scale it according to that engine nacelle, and then observe that the midhull consists of three identical sections, and then assume that those sections are modular... The three-section ship is too long, but a one-section version would match the ST2 dimensions almost perfectly!

I also like the middle version - a midget Ptolemy of sorts. But both do look like Starfleet vessels, and that's not the impression we got from ST2.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I heard that a cut scene explained that the green woman Kirk was with would alter the test when Kirk sent her a message...