Kobayashi Maru

[TomEvans]

Ok, based on the new Discovery canon, the Fed hasn't been in contact with Klingon for at least 100 years. When they're reappear in the 1st Episode of Discovery, It feel like a first contact situation. At that time, Both Captain Georgiou and the admiral showed that they don't understand at all about Klingon. The problem is, we have Kobayashi Maru scenario in starfleet Academy. And Kirk was cheated on it. So according to Star Trek Strange New World, Kirk was already a Lieutenant. That means, Kirk faced Kobayashi Maru scenario prior to Discovery Season 1. So everyone in Starfleet should already know about Klingons. Then why did they so ignorant in the first episode of Discovery, to an extend that it create a fatal situation to the fleet.

I'm sure that for Klingon to become the adversary in Kobayashi Maru scenario means that Federation / Starfleet has already has enough information about Klingon; more than what happen in Discovery Season 1. At least Georgiou would use Kobayashi Maru as a reference, or using the data from the 22nd century as the basis of their decision.

The less said about Kobayashi Maru, the better.... this was another Hollywood retcon, to switch Star Trek from a theme of populism, to COLLECTIVISM... by assigning suicide missions as crap tests, to see how blindly they followed orders. (There were actually childrens cartoons in Soviet Russia, with similar themes.

And this likewise made Kirk a Mary Sue, by getting awarded for cheating... just like Janeway after Endgame.
When in TOS, Kirks only mention of such a test, was in Bread and Circuses, concerning an intense psychometric test requiring split second timing, in order to become a starship captain.
And you had to pass it, WITHOUT cheating.

And this was in addition to the antihero theme of making Kirk into a complete fraud and dotard, along with Khan.
Gumpy Old Men.... In Space!!!

 

[BillJ]

The less said about Kobayashi Maru, the better.... this was another Hollywood retcon, to switch Star Trek from a theme of populism, to COLLECTIVISM... by assigning suicide missions as crap tests, to see how blindly they followed orders. (There were actually childrens cartoons in Soviet Russia, with similar themes.

And this likewise made Kirk a Mary Sue, by getting awarded for cheating... just like Janeway after Endgame.
When in TOS, Kirks only mention of such a test, was in Bread and Circuses, concerning an intense psychometric test requiring split second timing, in order to become a starship captain.
And you had to pass it, WITHOUT cheating.

And this was in addition to the antihero theme of making Kirk into a complete fraud and dotard, along with Khan.
Gumpy Old Men.... In Space!!!

Those were certainly words.

 

[HIjol]

The less said about Kobayashi Maru, the better.... this was another Hollywood retcon, to switch Star Trek from a theme of populism, to COLLECTIVISM... by assigning suicide missions as crap tests, to see how blindly they followed orders. (There were actually childrens cartoons in Soviet Russia, with similar themes.

And this likewise made Kirk a Mary Sue, by getting awarded for cheating... just like Janeway after Endgame.
When in TOS, Kirks only mention of such a test, was in Bread and Circuses, concerning an intense psychometric test requiring split second timing, in order to become a starship captain.
And you had to pass it, WITHOUT cheating.

And this was in addition to the antihero theme of making Kirk into a complete fraud and dotard, along with Khan.
Gumpy Old Men.... In Space!!!

There was no correct resolution…it was a test of character…

 

[BillJ]

When in TOS, Kirks only mention of such a test, was in Bread and Circuses, concerning an intense psychometric test requiring split second timing, in order to become a starship captain.
And you had to pass it, WITHOUT cheating.

Why does this invalidate the Kobayashi Maru? Schools have lots of tests. I should know having watched my three kids going through high school and college.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

My biggest criticism of the Kobayashi Maru has always been just the fact that it has become so widely known as "the no-win scenario," that the fact that the audience knows that the cadets are supposed to lose has been muddled into the cadets having that knowledge. Because I tend to think that, in knowing you WILL fail that test, it means that the cadets then don't approach it fully seriously - they're going to lose anyway, what does it matter?

Especially with the way that the program is meant to effectively cheat its way to a victory, regardless of what the cadets do, it just feels like it imparts a feeling of "this doesn't matter, it's not really going to count."

Personally, in terms of command tests, I greatly prefer the one that Deanna went through in Thine Own Self, being first a challenge outside her traditional skillset (she's a counselor, not an engineer), and then the answer being the real kick - sending one of her officers, one of her friends, to die, to live out the maxim of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Hell, it even ties in with some of the talk in Wrath of Khan, when Saavik says that, by cheating, Kirk never faced the no-win scenario, only for Spock to then sacrifice himself to save the ship, letting Kirk "win" the day, but still feel like he lost. My opinion is that that's a much more important lesson for a command officer, because sometimes the right solution is one that will still haunt you afterwards, one that will cost your soul as much as not taking it would have cost your life.

But I still understand what the KM test was meant to do. I just think it was a flawed example, one that worked better in that one instance, rather than how it has evolved through osmosis where the audience is fully aware of it, even though the characters probably shouldn't be.

 

[DonIago]

Personally, in terms of command tests, I greatly prefer the one that Deanna went through in Thine Own Self, being first a challenge outside her traditional skillset (she's a counselor, not an engineer), and then the answer being the real kick - sending one of her officers, one of her friends, to die, to live out the maxim of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Needing to order the holographic image of a friend to kill itself doesn't seem like much of a test, ultimately? I'd think realizing that you need to order "someone" to kill "themselves" would be more telling than doing so in such an instance, but then the test would be more about systems knowledge and logistics than a "no-win scenario".

I didn't appreciate Riker nudging Deanna along either, but oh well.

It would be far more compelling if they somehow set things up so that Deanna believed she was actually ordering someone to their deaths.

...well, it would be far more compelling if Deanna actually ordered someone to their death, but I don't think TNG was going to go there.

 

[Farscape One]

Needing to order the holographic image of a friend to kill itself doesn't seem like much of a test, ultimately? I'd think realizing that you need to order "someone" to kill "themselves" would be more telling than doing so in such an instance, but then the test would be more about systems knowledge and logistics than a "no-win scenario".

I didn't appreciate Riker nudging Deanna along either, but oh well.

It would be far more compelling if they somehow set things up so that Deanna believed she was actually ordering someone to their deaths.

...well, it would be far more compelling if Deanna actually ordered someone to their death, but I don't think TNG was going to go there.

I agree about Riker. Him nudging her ultimately meant she cheated on the test. She didn't really earn that rank.

Having said that, I will credit her for acknowledging that she didn't deserve the win at first because she knew she wasn't ready. I blame Riker a second time because he promoted someone who wasn't really ready to make that tough call.

 

[TomEvans]

Why does this invalidate the Kobayashi Maru? Schools have lots of tests. I should know having watched my three kids going through high school and college.

But not yourself.

 

[HIjol]

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[TomEvans]

Needing to order the holographic image of a friend to kill itself doesn't seem like much of a test, ultimately? I'd think realizing that you need to order "someone" to kill "themselves" would be more telling than doing so in such an instance, but then the test would be more about systems knowledge and logistics than a "no-win scenario".

But the no-win scenario would definitely be part of it.

I didn't appreciate Riker nudging Deanna along either, but oh well.

It would be far more compelling if they somehow set things up so that Deanna believed she was actually ordering someone to their deaths.

...well, it would be far more compelling if Deanna actually ordered someone to their death, but I don't think TNG was going to go there.

That would be inhumane... the very idea of doing so, was bad enough, and an officer would be accepting that risk and duty of giving such an order by taking on the rank position.

However the prospect of ordering a crew member to take on a fatal mission, rather than lose the entire ship, seems to be a very realistic one.. which is another reason that Wrath of Khan was strange, since Kirk would definitely have ordered Spock to fix the warp drive (in TOS anyway, not that abominable subversion of it... as shown in The Immunity Syndrome, where Kirk chose Spock over McCoy to pilot the shuttlecraft, and also apologized to Spock because it was almost certainly a fatal mission.

 

[TomEvans]

My biggest criticism of the Kobayashi Maru has always been just the fact that it has become so widely known as "the no-win scenario," that the fact that the audience knows that the cadets are supposed to lose has been muddled into the cadets having that knowledge.

My biggest criticism, is that it is a crap test to blindly follow orders against all logic, which implies a philosophy of pure collectivism... which is not what TOS was about, vs. populism.

Logically, the response to the given scenario, would be to save your ship and take immediate evasive action from the Klingon ships, not follow a needless suicide mission which destroyed the distressed ship AND yours... just to show that you are SERIOUS about becoming a command officer because Starfleet wanted puppets.

 

[The Wormhole]

it would be far more compelling if Deanna actually ordered someone to their death, but I don't think TNG was going to go there.

As part of a test? How would that work, would someone be specifically told they had to be ready to die in the event Deanna figured the purpose of the test was to show she could order someone to their death? That officer would actually have to sacrifice their life specifically so Deanna could get a promotion? I mean, WTF?

 

[TomEvans]

Hell, it even ties in with some of the talk in Wrath of Khan, when Saavik says that, by cheating, Kirk never faced the no-win scenario,

Thus missing the point completely, that TOS Kirk did face no win scenarios, but always sought a third option by thinking outside of the box.

For example the Doomsday Machine was a no win scenario, but Kirk risked his life in order to destroy it.

Meanwhile only a Mary Sue can cheat on a test, and get promoted for it... let alone win a ship battle by going up!!!

KARK.... YOU HAVE SUNK MY BATTLESHIP!

Right out of Bill & Teds Bogus Journey.

 

[TomEvans]

As part of a test? How would that work, would someone be specifically told they had to be ready to die in the event Deanna figured the purpose of the test was to show she could order someone to their death? That officer would actually have to sacrifice their life specifically so Deanna could get a promotion? I mean, WTF?

They could make her think the hologram was actually the real ship, like Moriarty did.

 

[DonIago]

As part of a test? How would that work, would someone be specifically told they had to be ready to die in the event Deanna figured the purpose of the test was to show she could order someone to their death? That officer would actually have to sacrifice their life specifically so Deanna could get a promotion? I mean, WTF?

I would hope it was obvious that I wasn't suggesting that Deanna should have to actually order someone to die as part of her test. This is TNG, not Kingsmen.

But ordering a non-sentient hologram to die doesn't seem like an especially challenging hurdle to overcome either.

Troi: "Computer, delete Geordi."
Riker: "Congratulations, you pass!"

 

[The Wormhole]

Then what are you suggesting? Because that's certainly what it sounded like to me.

 

[DonIago]

Then what are you suggesting? Because that's certainly what it sounded like to me.

Those 24th century folks are pretty smart; I imagine if they wanted to come up with a way of making someone believe in the moment that they were ordering someone to their death that they could find a way to do so.

Or, y'know, come up with a test that involves a different option. The KM as presented in TWoK worked just fine for me if the goal is to find out how command candidates handle face explicitly or implicitly killing people.

 

[TomEvans]

Especially with the way that the program is meant to effectively cheat its way to a victory, regardless of what the cadets do, it just feels like it imparts a feeling of "this doesn't matter, it's not really going to count."

That was the idea... i.e. not a split second intense psychometric test, like Kirk mentioned in Bread and Circuses, as necessary to command a starship vs. other space vessels.... but simply a sheep test, to show that you blindly follow order, against all logic and reason.

Which was a betrayal of everything that TOS stood for, replacing populism with collective hierarchy... which was ironically the original conflict in Space Seed.

So the backplot was retconned, to make Khan no longer a benevolent and wise dictator, who was thus to be opposed from a political theory of populist enlightenment, no matter how admirable and charismatic he waa....

...to simply make him evil like General Zod, so that he made the protagonist dictators (i.e. Kirk and Spock) look the lesser evil in comparison, under their new theme of benevolent collectivism.

 

[Maurice]

So the backplot was retconned, to make Khan no longer a benevolent and wise dictator,

No one making the show thought of Khan as benevolent or wise. At best, he was the least awful of a bunch of ruthless dictators. The script memos complain throughout the story development of him being little more than a "thug."

 

[TomEvans]

No one making the show thought of Khan as benevolent or wise.

Really, doctor....

[Briefing room]

(A large picture of their guest in on a screen)
KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately.

And as they discussed earlier...

[Officer's mess]

(After dinner, as liqueurs are being served.)
KIRK: Forgive my curiosity, Mister Khan, but my officers are anxious to know more about your extraordinary journey.
SPOCK: And how you managed to keep it out of the history books.
KHAN: Adventure, Captain. Adventure. There was little else left on Earth.
SPOCK: There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort.
KHAN: Tyranny, sir? Or an attempt to unify humanity?
SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip?
KHAN: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships.
KHAN: One man would have ruled eventually. As Rome under Caesar. Think of its accomplishments.

Here even Spock is caught, as he had retorted to McCoy in Bread and Circuses....

MERIK: There's been no war here for over four hundred years, Jim. Could, let's say, your land of that same era make that same boast? I think you can see why they don't want to have their stability contaminated by dangerous ideas of other ways and other places.
SPOCK: Interesting, and given a conservative empire, quite understandable.
MCCOY: Are you out of your head?
SPOCK: I said I understood it, Doctor. I find the checks and balances of this civilisation quite illuminating.
MCCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history.
SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor.
MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism.
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

So Spock's objections to Khan, over the lack of freedom under his reign, were exposed as somewhat anachronistic against the context of a 2Oth century Roman Empire.

But Kirk presses on....

KIRK: You fled. Why? Were you afraid?
KHAN: I've never been afraid.
KIRK: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage.
KHAN: We offered the world order!
KIRK: We?
KHAN: Excellent. Excellent.

Then after Kirk confines Khan to his quarters....

[Khan's quarters]

(Khan is seated at a plain table, dressed in a red Enterprise uniform shirt, when Kirk bursts in and sits opposite him.)
KHAN: I'm sorry, Captain. I was lost in thought. My door. Locked from outside, a guard posted.
KIRK: Unusual treatment for Khan Noonien Singh.
KHAN: Excellent. You identified me with your computer system, I imagine.
KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?
KHAN: Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I am surprised how little improvement there has been in human evolution. Oh, there has been technical advancement, but, how little man himself has changed. Yes, it appears we will do well in your century, Captain. Do you have any other questions?
KIRK: Thank you. They've all been answered.

So Khan shows his vision, after taking the Enterprise....

(The senior staff are awake again, and listening to a speech at gunpoint.)
KHAN: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well.

So Khan believed that humanity had failed, and sought to save it... but when nobody would follow him, he learned that man had changed in other ways....


And so at the end, Khan chose isolation, over integration in a populist Utopia.

Of course this flies over most heads.