Klingons: Where is the honor in cloaking?

[MarsWeeps]

One thing I thought was out of character for the Klingons was the whole cloaking business.

For a race that tries to be tough, living for pride and glory and whose greatest honor is to die in battle, hiding from their enemies behind a cloaking shield seems to be...well...cowardly.

Where is the honor in hiding from your enemy before you attack him?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Klingon Honor, it might not be the same as human honor.

 

[Kelso]

The Klingons weren't honorable in TOS. And they couldn't cloak.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm sure they thought they were honorable.

 

[Zycho32]

If you're trying to make a canon-rationale of the whole matter, then consider this;

The Klingons never demonstrated an ability to cloak while in TOS, only displaying it in STIII, or TSFS if you prefer. In TOS the ability to cloak was always given to the Romulans though they were not often utilized in said series.

But if you recall 'The Enterprise Incident' where Romulan forces showed up in Klingon vessels- and made a brief point to specifically mention those are Klingon vessels- then it was rather obvious that the Romulans and Klingons had a sort of cultural and tactical exchange during the series run. That would probably be when the ability to cloak transferred over.

As for Klingon honor, consider the hunter who waits in camouflage for his or her prey to approach before striking. Or the modern-day warrior who tries to blend in with his immediate enviroment while engaging enemy forces. Concealment has always been a valued practice in warfare and a culture which completely goes against such a notion is going to get ripped a new one when they least expect it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Klingon honour thing was invented for The Next Generation, and retconned into the Klingons' past in Enterprise. In classic Trek, as originally concieved, Klingons were "Less admirable characters [compared to Romulans]. Their only rule of life is that rules were made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait." (The Making of Star Trek)

 

[MarsWeeps]

The Klingons weren't honorable in TOS. And they couldn't cloak.

True, I should have posted this in the TNG forum.

Their only rule of life is that rules were made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait." (The Making of Star Trek)

Very interesting.

 

[MacLeod]

There is no greater honour than victory. To a Klingon.

I believe Worf said it in an episode of DSN.

 

[A beaker full of death]

The Klingon honour thing was invented for The Next Generation, and retconned into the Klingons' past in Enterprise. In classic Trek, as originally concieved, Klingons were "Less admirable characters [compared to Romulans]. Their only rule of life is that rules were made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait." (The Making of Star Trek)

Don't forget the whole farting-in-an-airlock thing.


The Klingons of modern Trek took on the aspects of the TOS Romulans.
So the question here could be asked re the Romulans.

 

[JarodRussell]

One thing I thought was out of character for the Klingons was the whole cloaking business.

For a race that tries to be tough, living for pride and glory and whose greatest honor is to die in battle, hiding from their enemies behind a cloaking shield seems to be...well...cowardly.

Where is the honor in hiding from your enemy before you attack him?

Do you hunt by running screaming through the open field or by silently getting close and killing your prey out of nowhere?

 

[MarsWeeps]

Do you hunt by running screaming through the open field or by silently getting close and killing your prey out of nowhere?

Poor analogy. It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. Klingons (the later ones) are all about "chest pounding" and "living for battle" and I would think they would want to battle their enemy out in the open. Hiding would be a sign of weakness, something no Klingon would admit to.

 

[JarodRussell]

Do you hunt by running screaming through the open field or by silently getting close and killing your prey out of nowhere?

Poor analogy. It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. Klingons (the later ones) are all about "chest pounding" and "living for battle" and I would think they would want to battle their enemy out in the open. Hiding would be a sign of weakness, something no Klingon would admit to.

It's not a poor analogy, because they are not all about chest pounding and living for battle. Ever seen TNG Birthright?

 

[Timo]

The Klingons weren't honorable in TOS.

Koloth used guile and the canonically unnamed Kras from "Friday's Child" was something of a backstabbing coward, but Kor certainly believed in the traditional human warrior honor: allowing brave enemies to stay alive, commending them on their success in opposing you, keeping even inconvenient promises. And Kang insisted that the Klingons honored the peace treaty from "Errand of Mercy" while Starfleet did not, which makes him both an honorable man and a filthy liar...

The Klingons never demonstrated an ability to cloak while in TOS

Actually, it would be very difficult to explain how the Klingons got the drop on Kirk's ship in the teaser of "Errand of Mercy" if not by decloaking. Kirk was fully geared for war there, but got surprised by a vessel that possessed very little firepower and was easily destroyed by a few return shots - a classic Starfleet vs. Klingon BoP engagement there, with the enemy perhaps tellingly unseen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Dominion]

It can be argued that cloaking a BoP is an honorable means of evening the stakes for a smaller vessel.

 

[GSchnitzer]

The Klingons weren't honorable in TOS.

Koloth used guile and the canonically unnamed Kras from "Friday's Child" was something of a backstabbing coward, but Kor certainly believed in the traditional human warrior honor: allowing brave enemies to stay alive, commending them on their success in opposing you, keeping even inconvenient promises. And Kang insisted that the Klingons honored the peace treaty from "Errand of Mercy" while Starfleet did not, which makes him both an honorable man and a filthy liar...

The Klingons never demonstrated an ability to cloak while in TOS

Actually, it would be very difficult to explain how the Klingons got the drop on Kirk's ship in the teaser of "Errand of Mercy" if not by decloaking. Kirk was fully geared for war there, but got surprised by a vessel that possessed very little firepower and was easily destroyed by a few return shots - a classic Starfleet vs. Klingon BoP engagement there, with the enemy perhaps tellingly unseen.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think Kras was "canonically unnamed:"

 

[Anwar]

Cloaking in Trek is pretty much the same as submarine warfare for us. No one here ever called that "dishonorable" or "cheating", it was just a new type of warfare everyone got used to.

 

[JB2005]

I'm pretty sure, as with all the new military technologies over the years, that submarine warfare was referred to by the British as "poor form" which in typical British understatement is akin to cheating and dishonourable...

After WW2 submarine warfare was considered acceptable, but prior to that it was seen as underhanded...

Quote:

For a period of twenty years before World War I, navies around the world were attempting to expand their forces as much as possible. Two countries that were very large participants in this arms race were Great Britain and Germany. Submarines were seen as sneaky and considered to be dishonorable weapons of war. For this reason Britain chose not give much attention to building up thier undersea fleet. On the other hand, Germany had no regrets in producing submarines for her navy.

from http://www.aletheia.fsnet.co.uk/cache/ulloa.html

 

[Anwar]

So it's a relative thing. Their enemies are PO'ed at the advantage the cloak gives and thus would say it's dishonorable, but to the Romulans/Klingons it's not dishonorable.

It's like how the Gorn thought destroying the Cestus III outpost even when everyone was surrendering, and not bothering to do any reconnaissance ahead of time to see if they really WERE hostile invaders, and then faking a distress call to destroy any other vessels in the area, wasn't well beyond mere self-defense.

 

[Kolrad]

This thread got me thinking about how many things that started out as characteristics of the Romulans ended up getting transferred to the Klingons, and vice versa.

"The Enterprise Incident" may have started it by having the Romulans use Klingon ships in order to re-use the D7 model. (Even more confusingly, that was actually the first time viewers saw that model on the show.)

Then, in The Wrath of Khan, the Kobayashi Maru test mentioned a "Neutral Zone" with the Klingons; I think all mentions of the Neutral Zone in the original series were connected to the Romulans.

In The Search for Spock, the enemy ship was supposed to be a Romulan Bird of Prey. The bad guys were changed to Klingons, but the ship name and its ability to cloak remained the same, so all of a sudden both Romulans and Klingons had Birds of Prey with cloaking devices.

Then you have the reversal of roles for the two species in the spinoff series, with the Klingons becoming all about honor and the Romulans being more pragmatic.

And then in Enterprise and the new Star Trek movie, you have the ship name confusion once again with the mention of "Klingon Warbirds."

I wonder if they will eventually become indistinguishable.

Any other examples/corrections?

 

[MarsWeeps]

Cloaking in Trek is pretty much the same as submarine warfare for us. No one here ever called that "dishonorable" or "cheating", it was just a new type of warfare everyone got used to.

Because no one here is Klingon.

This thread got me thinking about how many things that started out as characteristics of the Romulans ended up getting transferred to the Klingons, and vice versa.

"The Enterprise Incident" may have started it by having the Romulans use Klingon ships in order to re-use the D7 model.

I read somewhere that the reason they used the Klingon ship in that episode was because the Romulan model was destroyed somehow and they didn't build another for budgetary reasons. Not sure if there is any truth to that or not.