Klingon's Cloak
- Thread starter Photon
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had cloaks......waaaaaay before the Rommie/Klingon trade off.Naah. We have no evidence that an alliance ever existed between the Klingon and Romulan empires. At the very most, we hear Riker speculate on the possibility of a "new alliance" of that nature in TNG "Reunion", but that doesn't mean that an old alliance would ever have been in force.
In TOS "Enterprise Incident", Romulans are shown using Klingon ships. But Romulans and Klingons are later established as blood enemies. So the natural assumption would be that Romulans have captured some Klingon ships in battle.
In ENT "Unexpected", we see Klingons acquire invisibility technology in 2151, a century before the new movie. In "Broken Bow", we already get the first suggestion that the Suliban, too, have invisibility cloaks, and use these to surprise our heroes; this is later confirmed. Romulans also have invisibility devices in the 2150s. It should thus be no wonder that Klingons would possess the tech in the 2250s.
Several TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY episodes later feature cloaks, in the hands of dozens of different cultures. Yet only a single episode ever makes the claim that cloaks would be a novel thing: TOS "Balance of Terror", where Spock claims that invisibility is only a theoretical possibility as of the mid-2260s. Other TOS episodes seem to consider invisibility a relatively mundane event. Personally, I'd prefer to ignore "Balance of Terror", because it sounds so unlikely that our starfaring heroes would never have encountered invisibility before. It's such a standard scifi phenomenon, after all - hardly "theoretical" in the Trek universe.
Of course, nothing stops us from believing in a Klingon-Romulan pact that involved the selling of cloaking secrets, not if we want to believe so, even though we have reason to believe that Klingons had cloaks in the 2150s already. But it should be noted that nothing requires us to believe that this pact would only have been formed after the new movie. If Klingons and Romulans are in cahoots in TOS, there's nothing to prevent them from being in cahoots in the 2250s already.
As for the "warbird" designation, that's all good and systematic: Klingon vessels have typically been given bird-themed designations. They had a Bird of Prey in ST3, 4, 5 and 6, and then Birds of Prey, Warbirds and Raptors in ENT. (Co-?)incidentally, Romulans also have Warbirds, although they aren't known to have any Birds of Prey or Raptors or other bird-themed designations. But that shouldn't detract from the idea that Klingons consistently operate bird-themed ships.
Timo Saloniemi
In TOS "Enterprise Incident", Romulans are shown using Klingon ships. But Romulans and Klingons are later established as blood enemies. So the natural assumption would be that Romulans have captured some Klingon ships in battle.
In ENT "Unexpected", we see Klingons acquire invisibility technology in 2151, a century before the new movie. In "Broken Bow", we already get the first suggestion that the Suliban, too, have invisibility cloaks, and use these to surprise our heroes; this is later confirmed. Romulans also have invisibility devices in the 2150s. It should thus be no wonder that Klingons would possess the tech in the 2250s.
Several TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY episodes later feature cloaks, in the hands of dozens of different cultures. Yet only a single episode ever makes the claim that cloaks would be a novel thing: TOS "Balance of Terror", where Spock claims that invisibility is only a theoretical possibility as of the mid-2260s. Other TOS episodes seem to consider invisibility a relatively mundane event. Personally, I'd prefer to ignore "Balance of Terror", because it sounds so unlikely that our starfaring heroes would never have encountered invisibility before. It's such a standard scifi phenomenon, after all - hardly "theoretical" in the Trek universe.
Of course, nothing stops us from believing in a Klingon-Romulan pact that involved the selling of cloaking secrets, not if we want to believe so, even though we have reason to believe that Klingons had cloaks in the 2150s already. But it should be noted that nothing requires us to believe that this pact would only have been formed after the new movie. If Klingons and Romulans are in cahoots in TOS, there's nothing to prevent them from being in cahoots in the 2250s already.
As for the "warbird" designation, that's all good and systematic: Klingon vessels have typically been given bird-themed designations. They had a Bird of Prey in ST3, 4, 5 and 6, and then Birds of Prey, Warbirds and Raptors in ENT. (Co-?)incidentally, Romulans also have Warbirds, although they aren't known to have any Birds of Prey or Raptors or other bird-themed designations. But that shouldn't detract from the idea that Klingons consistently operate bird-themed ships.
Timo Saloniemi
Really wished Trek had built its cloaking tech around BoT. Esp, ST:ENT. Basically, the Suliban, Klingons, and Romulans should not have had the tech and then developed by the Romulans as a run up to BoT.
Interesting the Narada didn't have a cloak.
Even if the Narada had been cloak-capable, would we have seen this? 
I mean, a cloak might have allowed Nero to take Vulcan by surprise, but he'd have to decloak in order to fight the planet and Starfleet to submission, so our heroes (and the camera shadowing them) would never have witnessed the cloak. Later on, there would have been no reason for Nero to cloak.
No proof either way. But cloaks in the 24th century can be purchased from the corner kiosk if the Wal-Mart is closed. So one wouldn't expect them to only be found on military vessels.
And it still doesn't seem likely that invisibility would be a new concept at the time of TOS. Sure, it might be an advanced technology that none of the usual players have yet mastered, and the Romulans are the first to get it right. But it couldn't be a new concept, because the galactic playground doesn't feature just the usual players. There are always more advanced civilizations mucking around. And if cloaks are ubiquitous among the usual players in the 24th century, there's no reason why they wouldn't be ubiquitous among some other players in the 23rd, or the 22nd, or the 2nd, or the minus 345th. It just stretches credibility that Spock would never have seen an invisible ship, so to speak.
Then again, perhaps that's a bit like the "time travel has been declared impossible by the Vulcan Science Academy" thing: despite blatant evidence, Vulcans feel compelled to state categorical untruths every now and then.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, a cloak might have allowed Nero to take Vulcan by surprise, but he'd have to decloak in order to fight the planet and Starfleet to submission, so our heroes (and the camera shadowing them) would never have witnessed the cloak. Later on, there would have been no reason for Nero to cloak.
No proof either way. But cloaks in the 24th century can be purchased from the corner kiosk if the Wal-Mart is closed. So one wouldn't expect them to only be found on military vessels.
And it still doesn't seem likely that invisibility would be a new concept at the time of TOS. Sure, it might be an advanced technology that none of the usual players have yet mastered, and the Romulans are the first to get it right. But it couldn't be a new concept, because the galactic playground doesn't feature just the usual players. There are always more advanced civilizations mucking around. And if cloaks are ubiquitous among the usual players in the 24th century, there's no reason why they wouldn't be ubiquitous among some other players in the 23rd, or the 22nd, or the 2nd, or the minus 345th. It just stretches credibility that Spock would never have seen an invisible ship, so to speak.
Then again, perhaps that's a bit like the "time travel has been declared impossible by the Vulcan Science Academy" thing: despite blatant evidence, Vulcans feel compelled to state categorical untruths every now and then.
Timo Saloniemi
That sounds like a "We can't do it, so it can't happen" argument if I ever heard one.
If you sail the stars for three thousand years, you might get used to the idea that you do know what you are speaking about, and that what you cannot do can't happen...
('Course, Vulcans weren't out there for the whole 3,000 years - they had their nuclear war and new stone age in between. But they might be arrogant enough to think of themselves as "old and wise" anyway.)
Timo Saloniemi
('Course, Vulcans weren't out there for the whole 3,000 years - they had their nuclear war and new stone age in between. But they might be arrogant enough to think of themselves as "old and wise" anyway.)
Timo Saloniemi
The irony of your argument is that the movie "Bird of Prey" was designed to be Romulan and was only slightly (at best) redesigned when the protagonists were switched to Klingons. (I think they changed the colour when the protagonist switch happened during the preproduction?) (Enterprise (series) references don't count in my book, as the only way I could watch it was to realize it was a parallel universe)
Why would they change the color? Romulan and Klingon ships were both white/grey in TOS. I think this was the first green ship we've seen in Trek. As seen in STIII it has more in common with Klingon ship than a Romulan one. Plus its the first ship ever call a "Bird of Prey" on screen. In BOT bird of prey refered to the paintjob not the ship.
ENT is canon, so it's episodes count no matter what you need to watch it. I'm not a VOY fan, but if it can be used to prove a point, I'll use it.
ENT is canon, so it's episodes count no matter what you need to watch it. I'm not a VOY fan, but if it can be used to prove a point, I'll use it.
(Do you really think they will give their reasoning here?)
Whatever squeaks your duck. I'm happy for you Ernie!
I was hoping for your reasoning, since you brought it up.
I like playing with the entire deck. Seems silly to toss out a card because you don't like the picture. Limits your options
I didn't have any input into the matter. If you somehow got the impression I did, please re-read what I actually wrote/typed.
Duck, not deck. But as far as I'm concerned, you can play with your hands any way you like! Although, neither of us is playing with a full deck, as evidenced and proven by our participation here at all! We need a life! LOL
Oh, you should've just asked where I got the information... you asked what my reasoning was. The info came from an interview in a magazine with a special effects guy... don't remember the title or name(s) involved... it was over 20 years ago now. If I recall correctly, they changed the overall tint or just the color around the engines to make it look "less Romulan."
But, the post was more to convey my appreciation for the irony of the argument versus intentions of the design and subsequent story changes giving validity to the argument. It wasn't meant to derail this thread into a discussion about rivit-counting.
I thought asking "Why would they do that?" pretty much asked for more information. Your reasoning would be based on information from "them." I hope someone can track doen the article, sounds fascinating.
Doesn't seem like much of a derailment, given the relationship between the Romulans and the Klingons over the course of the franchise. Mix and match has been the order of the day since "the Enterprise Incident"
The irony being that by TNG, all the Romulan ships were green.
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