Klingons and Earth etc...

[ATW]

Can't believe I am going to post this right after my last post moaning that it's only a TV show but...

OK this may have been posted before, but with the Klingons being a race of Warriors and likely building large parts of their Empire through conquest I need to ask this, how come Earth never came under their radar? According to Memory Alpha, Qo'noS is 4.5 days away from Earth yet the Empire never thought to conquer Earth. I don't Earth is a poor planet in terms of resources etc - (I may be wrong).

What about Vulcan, Andoria all the other close by systems?

Is there even been a war between the Empire, Andorians, Vulcans without the mention of the Federation (even in non-canon liteture)? A bit weird if not

 

[Sci]

Can't believe I am going to post this right after my last post moaning that it's only a TV show but...

OK this may have been posted before, but with the Klingons being a race of Warriors and likely building large parts of their Empire through conquest I need to ask this, how come Earth never came under their radar? According to Memory Alpha, Qo'noS is 4.5 days away from Earth yet the Empire never thought to conquer Earth. I don't Earth is a poor planet in terms of resources etc - (I may be wrong).

One explanation is that space is big -- so big that if the Empire traditionally expanded in one the antispinwise direction of the galaxy, even a nearby planet that laid spinwise might not come under their flag.

Another possibility is that Earth was considered to be within the Vulcan sphere of influence, and the Klingons kept away from that.

 

[Timo]

One might speculate that the Klingons did try their luck in this neighborhood - and got a few extra bumps on their foreheads from the viciously fighting Vulcans and their superior starships.

Indeed, Picard in TNG "First Contact" (the episode, not the movie) tells an alien leader that a disastrous first contact with the Klingons centuries before the episode led to decades of war with the Klingons and taught the wisdom of a Prime Directive when approaching an alien culture. Picard probably wasn't speaking of human first contact, the one we saw in ENT "Broken Bow". After all, that wasn't disastrous as such and, more damningly, would in no way have benefited from a Prime Directive approach.

So perhaps Picard is referring to the Klingon/Vulcan first contact? It would be easy to see how that could go horribly wrong if the Vulcans didn't figure out in advance that the Klingons were proud warriors who'd take a dim view on people who deny their own proud warrior roots. The resulting fight might still go to the superior Vulcans and their superior technology, forcing the Klingons to seek their fortunes in other directions.

Clearly, there's some sort of a military balance between the Klingons and Vulcans as of ENT. And Vulcans never seem to consider the Klingons a threat to Vulcan, even though they worry about them moving against Earth if the humans make the wrong kind of noises. Also, Klingons probably have had encounters with the Romulans early on, and know better than to rattle sabers at somebody with pointed ears.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ATW]

I initially thought of both of those, but if we're to believe the Empire was this war like why would they accept Vulcan spheres of influence, especially when the Vulcans had trouble with the Andorian Empire?

Am I thinking about this too much?

 

[Timo]

The Vulcans might have been far mightier in the recent past, and would be on their way to decline as of ENT. They could have been too tough a nut for the Klingons to crack a few centuries before ENT, and the bumpheads just hadn't gotten around to a rematch yet.

Remember how the Klingons wax poetic about their honor code in TNG? That's when they are in a state of moral slump, suppressed and perhaps even oppressed by the do-good Feds who force the Empire to adopt a peaceful stance. The restless warrior class would implode soon enough unless Imperial propaganda promoted a strict samurai ethic that ritualized the duels and in general kept the fighting manageable.

In contrast, during TOS the Klingons are at the height of their power, and the height of their arrogance. Warrior codes are cast out of the airlock, and the only honor deemed worth striving for is the honor of victory. The same happens in DS9, when the Klingons emerge from the UFP's shadow under Gowron's aggressive leadership.

Now look at the ENT Klingons. Honor codes, religious fervor and carefully regulated infighting again. Forced into a peaceful stance by a recent defeat in a war against the Vulcans, perhaps?

Or by some other defeat against a foe we know nothing of? Any defeat would explain a hesistancy to launch into an adventure against not completely defenseless neighbors.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ATW]

I see, I never thought of it that way to be honest. It does make sense if you conjure up that the Klingons have had a war with either the Vulcans/a mysterious race before ENT started although I think it is unlikely it was at the hand of the Vulcans as it is hard to believe the Vulcans could be in a continious war with the Andorians for 200 years (according to Memory Alpha) while fighting a war of a decent sized Empire (even at that early stage the Klingons must have had countless Worlds, with some at least being subjegated).

I think it makes sense that there must have had a devastating encounter with another race (maybe even the Romulans again - as they seen the storm clouds on the horizon) which left them more of a bit time player while four intersteller players join together to form the Federation, which led to a superpower in the future being created.

PS. Thanks for the explanations though and sorry if most of these questions have been answered as it has only been in the last few months I have delved further and wanted to learn more about the world of Star Trek.

 

[Timo]

Oh, have no fear - this subject does arise every now and then, but it's not one of those weekly annoyances, and nobody knows a definite answer to your good questions anyway.

A "decent-sized Empire"... I wonder. Vulcans have never been explicitly stated to possess colonial holdings, but there are references to them having a colonialist past. And they certainly operate in an imperialistic mode in ENT even if their gunboat diplomacy doesn't quite equate to direct subjugation of colonies or satellite cultures. It's possible that the Vulcan Empire in ENT was basically as large as the Klingon one, having grown similarly to the Romulan Star Empire even though being based on Surakian "pacifist" logic rather than Romulan passion...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[apenpaap]

Well, the area the Federation later occupied was covered by a whole lot of mini-empires in the 21st and 22nd century. Many species with just two or three systems, with the Vulcans and the Andorians being the most powerful factions. However, if the Klingons would decide to conquer this area, the chances are many of these factions will put aside their differences and form one powerful opponent, as eventually happened when the Romulans tried it.
Speaking of the Romulans, they may also be partly responsible. At the time, the Romulan and Klingon empires were the two major empires in the area, and both being very aggressive and stuff, I could see them having a Cold War, and neither of them daring to divert to much resources to conquering al those little empires, as it would leave them vulnerable to the other.
Also, the Klingons may not consider it honourable to attack weak foes.

 

[Mister_Atoz]

The Andorians seems reasonably 'bad ass' in ENT, I wonder if there might be a bit of a cold war between them and the Klingons in that time period. I would tend to give the edge to the Klingons.

I've always felt that the Klingons probably spend as much time fighting each other as conquering other races and that the empire itself is mostly made up of other klingon worlds conquered during various civil wars and internal conflicts. In war time the great houses contribute their military forces to a common cause much in the way that the ancient Greek City states did on Earth. Though this would allow the Klingons to conquer most of the planets in their empire, a cunning adversary such as the Vulcans or Andorians may require more resources and more cooperation between the houses than they are generally willing to commit for fear of weakening their respective position in the empire.

 

[Timo]

One thing we know little about is "other empires" - powers that may have perished before or during ENT but still influenced history, or powers that still survive beyond the Klingon and Romulan realms and continue to challenge them "from the other side". Novels and RPGs have mentioned the Kinshaya as a recurring Klingon foe, and the Romulans had some mysterious foe that kept them occupied prior to TNG "The Neutral Zone".

The Feds, Klingons and Romulans look relatively puny even in the 24th century, occupying just a few tiny corners of the galaxy; nothing compared with the Borg, or with the Dominion if their propaganda is to be believed, and also nothing compared with the total volume of the galaxy or its quadrants. There could be a dozen empires of that size clustered around Earth, Qo'noS and Romulus, with smaller empires like the Cardassian Union situated in between, and we'd probably be none the wiser: every one of those empires would always have two or three further empires poking at their backsides, keeping them occupied for two-thirds of their time at least.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[rahullak]

This galaxy is too darned brimming with sentient life...BUT I wouldn't have it any other way

 

[Anwar]

One thing we know little about is "other empires" - powers that may have perished before or during ENT but still influenced history, or powers that still survive beyond the Klingon and Romulan realms and continue to challenge them "from the other side". Novels and RPGs have mentioned the Kinshaya as a recurring Klingon foe, and the Romulans had some mysterious foe that kept them occupied prior to TNG "The Neutral Zone".

The Feds, Klingons and Romulans look relatively puny even in the 24th century, occupying just a few tiny corners of the galaxy; nothing compared with the Borg, or with the Dominion if their propaganda is to be believed, and also nothing compared with the total volume of the galaxy or its quadrants. There could be a dozen empires of that size clustered around Earth, Qo'noS and Romulus, with smaller empires like the Cardassian Union situated in between, and we'd probably be none the wiser: every one of those empires would always have two or three further empires poking at their backsides, keeping them occupied for two-thirds of their time at least.

Timo Saloniemi

At least it's not as bad as Star Wars where the Galaxy seems to revolve around the same 12 or so planets in the entire saga.

 

[Timo]

Amen! Although one might always argue that "the Force is strong on these 12 ones" or something like that...

At least TOS never really gave the impression that the Romulans and the Klingons were the only enemies out there. Their introductory episodes gave the impression that they were not usually on the top of the UFP's worry list, even though they were potent foes as such.

TNG "brought back" the Romulans after a supposed long dormancy, and got excellent mileage out of them while maintaining the impression that their prominence again was but a temporary thing. TNG showed us what a true "new foe" might look like, first with the Ferengi and then with the Borg, while repeating the "old foe that's only new to the audience" shtick with the Cardassians and the Talarians. I never got the impression that the action rotated around a small bunch of worlds or species. DS9, being a sessile setting, could of course be excused with that. But some repeating stuff in VOY got annoying fast.

Personally, I don't find the Alpha Quadrant setting or choice of players too limiting, dramatically or scifi-wise. It just goes to show that the Feds aren't quite as cosmopolitan as they'd like to be, and that there are still surprises around every corner - including the ones beyond the alleys controlled by Klingon or Romulan gangs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Luckyflux]

I always thought of the early Klingons more as bullies rather than conquerors. They seemed to me that you could be off on your merry own and you'd be fine, but if you ran into a Klingon you were fightin'. They never struck me as forming a super large task force where every Captain fought under the same banner to conquer and subjagate an entire species. They would just bully you into taking your valuables and thanking you for generously donating to the empire.

 

[ATW]

The Andorians seems reasonably 'bad ass' in ENT, I wonder if there might be a bit of a cold war between them and the Klingons in that time period. I would tend to give the edge to the Klingons.

I've always felt that the Klingons probably spend as much time fighting each other as conquering other races and that the empire itself is mostly made up of other klingon worlds conquered during various civil wars and internal conflicts. In war time the great houses contribute their military forces to a common cause much in the way that the ancient Greek City states did on Earth. Though this would allow the Klingons to conquer most of the planets in their empire, a cunning adversary such as the Vulcans or Andorians may require more resources and more cooperation between the houses than they are generally willing to commit for fear of weakening their respective position in the empire.

I like the Greek City State explanation, but I see them more - I mean the way they were run - like the Satraps of Persia or even more extreme version of the Lordships of Medieval Europe, where there was a King at the top and various Lords underneath. Just like Lordships, each House had their own "allies" with fleets to call upon but at the time of war, a levy was placed on all the Houses to provide a percentage of what is required in ships and other necessities for war.

I still don't think it could have anything to do with the Vulcans as although we see them in a rather powerful light, they were only able to keep in check the Andorians through less than honourable ways.

 

[Jasper Sierra]

Klingons could spend as much or more time fighting each other than conquering other species. Maybe they were too caught up in themselves to ever get around to conquering Earth.