Spoilers Klingon space fairing time line.

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Crazyewok, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Some thoughts on Klingon history, culture and fuedal hierarchy.

    This is how I see the 1st, 2nd and 3rd empire's.

    1st empire

    Starts around around 1940 and ended around 2160.
    Klingon have gained post war tec
    At this time the houses where more unfied under a strong chancellor or chancellors and it has a central military along with the individual houses having their own private fleet.
    During this time the basic boarders of Klingon space are expanded and nearby "lesser" races conquered
    Around 2160 the empire collapses, maybe due to the death of the chancellor or/and internal strife caused by the augment virus plus romulan intrigue.
    The Augument virus and collapse into a mini dark age could of brought on the culture of being "hyper klingon" and going overboard. Central ship building along with the chancellor's power and fleet break down leading to 24 mini Klingon empire's doing their own thing.


    You then get 2256 and the war.
    It's failure and Lrells chancellorship brings about the secound empire. Under her leadership the chancellor's position becomes meaningfull again and a centralised Klingon military is again formed,though the houses still have their own ships.

    Klingon enter a period of cold war and shimmering hostility. Certain houses though being more keen to attack the federation than others.
    The empire again is on the uprise.

    2293 happens with praxis exploding. The empire is thrown into disaray and forced i to accepting a less aggressive lifestyle in trade for federation aid.
    This leads to more reforms.

    This beguins the 3rd empire.
    The chancellor has less central power due to demilirisation , yet the houses still have considerable assets resulting in the ease of civil war we see in TNG, plus the fact that some houses are still hostile to the federation despite the official stance of peace with the federation.

    The Klingon military is now organised into the Klingon defence force.

    As for the houses.

    My guess is that each major house holds govership over multiple world's.
    Ships are not just tools but like swords are viewed as valuable/almost sentimental family assets and are carefully maintained , upgraded and modified. Even in the TNG we see different variants of the B'rell class like ones the duros used i generations.

    Minor houses would hold governorship over minor planets or moons or even provences and are the equivalent to medievil knights or lower nobility IE in service to a great house.

    All houses would own assets of various degrees on qonos.
    Each house would hold unqiue views of other species, some being more inclined to humans and others like duros being more friendly yo to romulans.

    As far as why warriors are dominant, it is likely as the view is similar to medievil Europe where leaders like knights, lords, princes and king where expected to fight alongside their men in war,therefore all leaders had to be by default warriors.
    Other profession exist but you will never get any sort of political power or hold it unless you are willing to fight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  2. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Captain Captain

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    Interesting.
    Yeah, for the 2nd empire, thats the lines I was thinking when Disco(ball) appeared. That from Enterprise to Disco, that the klingon central power collapsed because of X. and that the individual houses became more prominant, and more infighting. With L'rell, they have a new powerfull chancelor, and regained a new central gov. and for the next 40 years, you have certain houses that are more hostile to the Federation, where others are more concilitory, and explains where some Klingon captains are more agressive, wanting to fight, where others are more pragmatists.
     
  3. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The other thing is the Klingons had their version of ronin. Klingons unaligned to any house or part of a minor house who get a ship and seek their fame and fortune.

    These would mostly be little better than pirates but useful to the high council who can use to do damage but deny official involvement. Kruge in search for spoke would likely fall into that category.

    I imagine they where nussiences to the federation long after the kitomer accords.
     
  4. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My guess is the augment virus would of caused massive unrest and chaos.
    All trust in the high council would of been lost.

    Also the fact the augmented virus created such shameful disfigurement would of spurred a over compensated hyper aggressive Klingon culture with Klingon cutting their hair and prominently showing ridge lines to prove how "klingon" they are.
     
  5. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "spacefaring"

    A space fairing is...I don't know...the nose cone on a rocket?

    Anyway, (apocryphally at least) the Klingons gained warp when they killed the Hur'q after the latter invaded Qonos during Earth's 14-15th centuries, which was about 500 years after Kahless overthrew Molor the Tyrant, who was already ruler of a (mostly?) united Qonos.

    Random sidenote, the only named Klingon from before the Kahless Age is Kortar, the "first Klingon". Kortar and his unnamed female mate killed the Klingon gods. Maybe that's what earned him the title of "first"? Anyway, apparently murdering all of Olympus got ol'Kortar his gig on the barge of the damned.

    Kahless and Molor were never described as using anything other than bladed weapons. So the Age of Kahless was pre-industrial, even pre-firearms.

    Fast forward 500 years (+/- 200 years, the timelines here are not exactly detailed), and they must have had some fairly advanced technological knowledge to be able to reverse engineer a starship, nevermind overthrow the Invaders. Assuming you subscribe to the theory of literally conquering warp. It's certainly in character.

    Fast forward 500 more years (our 21st century) Qonos still had an emperor. Possibly the last emperor, as the seat sat empty from some point in the 2000's until 2369 when Kahless the Clone was crowned the first emperor in "300 years", per Gowron.

    As for the "second/third empire" stuff, I'm not sure there was a true interregnum or change in government. Gowron's ascent was accompanied by a civil war as well. Like Rome, it might just be a common feature of regime change. In fact, half the chancellors we see were either shot, poisoned or stabbed to death.

    We don't know if L'Rell deposed a weak chancellor-in-name-only, or if she ascended to an empty office. The power of the executive may wax and wane with the individual who holds it, which is how fuedal warlordships (including kingships) worked. Some people were just puppets on a throne.

    I like the overall thought process though. I hope we can expand on this a bit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  6. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    The way I see it, there are three major eras: 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Empires.

    First Empire (870 to 2069)

    The 1st Empire was founded by Kahless, possibly on the ruins of Molor's planetary empire. It's possible that Kahless' Empire wasn't even full planet, just a small(ish) one that would conquer the planet in subsequent generations. Kahless is rooted in mythology, despite being a 9th-century figure, but multiple events happen during the 1st Empire, including the Second Dynasty's slaughter, the Klingon Dark Times (democratic Qo'noS), and most importantly the Hur'Q invasion.

    Some have painted the Hur'Q as conquerors who the Klingons shrugged off, others as simple plunderers who gave the Klingons a kick in the nose before departing to parts unknown. It could be that they gained warp travel from the Hur'Q, or perhaps simply that they developed it naturally. They were not a martial culture then, I think that came later and their history has been revisioned.

    But they were spacefaring by the 2000s. 2016 is when they first came in contact with Vulcans. If I am correct, they may not have been spacefaring long, and the Vulcan contact may have even been their first contact with another alien in centuries. Assuming a war status like the Hur'Q, they attack Vulcan ships and the Vulcans respond in kind. I have theorized that the Romulans may have been behind this conflict, and that it is the "disastrous first contact that led to decades of war" mentioned by Picard.

    The conflict with an alien species, and continuing issues at home led to the deposal of the final Klingon Emperor in the 2060s. Worf refers to the Second Empire as being led by a Chancellor, so I assume that is a natural dividing line.

    Second Empire (2069-2369)

    The High Council, led by an elected Chancellor, takes over in the 21st century after having been defeated by Vulcans at every turn. This is where the martial culture gets kicked into high gear. Scientists and spymasters are disreputable. History is rewritten and reimagined. Despite Broken Bow showing us that Qo'noS (or at least the Empire) is very close to Earth, they don't come into contact with that planet for 100 more years.

    Instead, the Second Empire expands elsewhere, away from Earth and more importantly the Vulcans (who have declared Earth a protectorate now). They attempt to conquer the Breen (the only real canon reference to a "Second Empire"), we know they conquer several other worlds and begin dabbling in severe planetary slavery and intergalactic piracy. They likely run across the Romulans at this time.

    By the 2150s, Klingon culture has grossly reformed. Some (like Kolos) state this as a fact within his lifetime. The Klingon High Council is aware of a Temporal Cold War, or at least shenanigans involving Suliban and Tholians, and perhaps due to this and Earth evolving beyond Vulcan protection, the Klingons begin slowly raiding and expanding Earthward.

    But... the Romulan War hits. Interstellar warfare explodes across the region. Klingons would've taken full advantage of the chaos, if not for their interaction with Earthers just prior to the conflict. They experimented on Augments, and a virus spread and society would collapse. The Houses may have not even agreed on a Chancellor, and diplomatic relations ceased. Orions and Romulans took advantage of them, and their attempts at curing the virus led to even greater deformities across the race that I dare not even mention.

    They don't completely close their borders, but isolation becomes the de facto norm. Raids on their old enemies, the Vulcans, likely increase (exacerbated by Romulan spies out for revenge), as a growing movement to unite the Empire once more increases. T'Kuvma, or the kuvah'magh, leads a revolution (funded in part by Romulans) that hopes to accomplish this task through warfare.

    He does, dying in the process, and the Empire is led by his eventual successor, L'rell, taking on the titles of "High Chancellor" and later "Mother" as she consolidates her power with Federation assistance.

    T'Kuvma's War reshapes the political landscape of the region, and with L'rell's consolidation of power, she creates a new Imperial Fleet, not reliant on individual Houses or the old style feudalistic approach to interstellar war. New D7s were just a first step. Mother's directives placed less inference on honor and more realpolitik when dealing with the Federation or Vulcan.

    The Romulans had provided cloaking devices, and would continue to remain "allies" for decades, although this was never publicly acknowledged. A subset of Klingons were genetically and surgically altered to man the D7s, to ensure loyalty directly to Mother and remove it from their individual Houses. Some scions of popular royal Houses were even drafted into the D7 program.

    Ten years after T'Kuvma's War, the Fleet had been entirely rebuilt and was ready for mass deployment. New leadership of the High Council deployed this Fleet directly against the Federation, taking planets and making encroachments on their territory. All-out war was prevented only by non-corporeal beings.

    Stymied in their attempt at conquering the Federation, now seen as an existential threat due to the promotion of T'Kuvma's old teachings, they move to proxy wars, piracy, and increased diplomacy with the Romulans.

    The latter is a mistake, as the Romulans decide to play off both sides in order to destroy their ancient enemy (Vulcans). Chancellor Gorkon, tired of years of war, scheming, and war-scheming, decides to negotiate after the biggest environmental disaster in Qo'noS history. The Khitomer conspiracy is the result.

    Rogue Starfleet agents, with assistance from Rogue Klingons and "Rogue" Romulans auccessfully assassinate Gorkon, and this is subsequently exposed. Azetbur becomes the new Chancellor, and she attempts to remove all rogue elements after signing the treaty with the Federation and fixing the Klingon homeworld.

    Azetbur is deposed, her reforms mostly ignored, and women are stripped from positions of power in the Empire. Although the First Khitomer Accords are paid lip service to, Azetbur's successors focus their attention elsewhere. The Romulans, in seclusion from the Federation, make peace again with the Klingons. The position of Chancellor probably remains dormant with a mostly powerless High Council Leader (eventually K'mpec) being the simple replacement. Expansion of the Empire is halted by the Accords, as the Imperial Fleet is replaced by Defense Forces (multiple forces once again composed of multiple houses).

    The Alliance with the Romulans ends abruptly at Narendra III when ships from the Star Empire attack a defenseless Klingon planet. In light of this dishonest attack, and because the Federation lost a ship to the Romulans which had responded to the battle, the Khitomer Accords are reaffirmed with a Second Treaty of Alliance, negotiated by Sarek and Riva. Two years later, Romulans (with the aid of Klingon collaborators) attack the Khitomer site itself, now a Klingon colony, although the Federation is quicker this time to assist.

    The Treaty of Alliance and the new state of tension with the Romulans brings greater friendship and accord with Starfleet and the Empire, making Qo'noS almost an unofficial member of the Federation. The Federation would even go so far as arbitrate a leadership crisis and negotiate a brief Civil War.

    Third Empire (2369 onward)

    The Third Empire has to exist from Worf's reference to a Second Empire as a prior thing, and I think it's pretty obvious the time when they became an Empire again. Only about six years of activity was seen, but it was a pretty active six years for the Empire and the region to boot.

    First, monks from Boreth resurrect (clone) Kahless again, who is begrudgingly made ceremonial Emperor. Little changed after that, although there was probably equally little change between the death of the last Emperor and the elevation of the Chancellor in the 2060s.

    Speaking of Chancellor, High Council Leader Gowron begins referring to himself as such, possibly in response to the new Emperor's arrival. Gowron's actions shape these early years of the Third Empire. A new threat to the region emerges, and they pin the Empire against the Cardassian Union. Interference from the Federation results in Gowron rescinding both Khitomer Accords.

    That war ends with the exposure of the Dominion manipulation. Then the real war begins. The Klingons and Federation, and Romulans and others, ally to face off against the Dominion in the bloodiest war in regional history.

    The Klingons win many victories, but they lose many as well. The Defense Forces suffer heavy casualties as the result of Chancellor Gowron's poor decisions, or politically driven decisions as a result of General Martok's popularity.

    So, Gowron is killed and Martok is installed as Chancellor. Then the war is won and the Empire lives happily ever after.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd still prefer for each "Empire" to be firmly connected to one or more dynasties of actual "Emperors", with the in-between parts where Chancellors and Councils lead and Emperors are absent getting some other designation. The brief dalliance with democracy is of course justly known as "the Dark Time", so the imperial interregnums could use the traditional "Republic" without actually associating themselves with democratic weakness.

    Whatever Mother L'Rell leads or founds, it won't be an Empire with an Emperor/Empress at the helm, because this is the bit explicitly forbidden in "Rightful Heir" and the likes.

    Timo Saloniemiu
     
  8. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    The only thing we know about the Second Empire is that a chancellor was involved. The First Empire was founded by Kahless (completely throwing out Molor's empire from the numbering scheme).

    It's likely that Chancellors existed under Emperors, a la Prime Ministers or Cromwell, and they just got powerful enough to depose the Emperor in the 21st century, and probably several times before.

    T'Kuvma may have had an eye towards Emperor, and maybe many Klingons do, in a Romanesque way. Just like there was never a reigning Roman empress, perhaps there was never a reigning Klingon empress, so L'Rell's Mother title is an invention of the autocracy little different from the old style Emperor from two centuries prior.

    And Klingons revision their history and don't talk of public knowledge "with outsiders," so they could have an Emperor or Empress or two in the 2250s but not consider them as legitimate in the scheme of things by Rightful Heir.
     
  9. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like this. Though, L'Rell never styled herself as empress, nor was she considered one by Gowron. I agree with kicking Molor off the official list. He's Empire Zero, if you will, much as late pre-dynastic Egypt is often called Dynasty Zero.

    As for the number of empires, it's probably better to view that through the lens of how China historically called itself: as a marker of dynasty. There were at least 3, and probably more. The 1st Empire would be the dynasty of Kahless. The 1st Empire would have ended with the death of Kahless' last direct descendant or a civil war between claimants. The 2nd ended with the death of Reclaw. The third starts with Reclaw II (no relation). There was likely a 4th, 5th etc. No telling how many, really.

    There's also the way France considers itself: 1st Empire, 1st Republic, Bourbon Restoration, 2nd Republic, 2nd Empire...

    Between the 1st and 2nd Klingon empires there was rule by a chancellor/high council. Maybe that's the 1st Chancellorship? While the 2069-onwards is the 2nd Chancellorship? Not sure I'd call the placement of Kahless II as token head of state the start of a new empire, but it's your thread.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  10. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    An issue with that is that the Klingon Empire is still referred to as an "Empire" even during a 300-year interregnum. Empire doesn't necessarily connote an Emperor, just a government that practices imperialism. The British Empire, led by a King or Queen. The Mongol Empire, led by a Khan. The early Roman Emperors were merely consuls or Caesars or whatevers.

    There's a translation issue here, as the Klingons have their own words for their government, and their leader types. The words are not exact, which makes sense because they have an alien culture that can't be easily pigeonholed.
     
  11. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Technically, the King/Queen of England during the Empire was also Emperor/Empress of India. They were just skittish about claiming themselves Emperor of the British as well.

    But yeah, we're just scratching the surface of how convoluted monarchies get. A lot of things were labeled as such for the appeasement of one or few nobles, not for any consistency. Then things get relabeled again for the convenience of the historians. What did the Byzantines call themselves? The Roman Empire. What did the Vatican call the Byzantines? The Kingdom of the Greeks.
     
  12. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Other thing is how the Klingons treated their subjects.

    My guess is they come in a ruthlessly kill all military and government officials.

    But they don't seem the sort that would get involved with long term occupation.

    Rather they just install a puppet government that gives tribute to whatever house controls it.

    If occupation was harsher i doubt the federation would have ever signed a peace with them.
     
  13. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    TOS "Errand of Mercy":

    This is how Klingons rule subject planets according to "Errand of Mercy".
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or then this is how they tame strategically important stepping stones on short notice, and longterm ruling is something else altogether.

    We never did find out what the Klingons hoped to gain from conquering Organia. The other witnessed elements of their offensive involved rapid surprise maneuvers that caught our heroes pants down; why would they stop to toy with a medieval world?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    I've got no idea really, but I always liked the idea they overthrew their oppressors and took their technology from them.
     
  16. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    We now know that the House of Kor, while publicly a heroic, noble House, was secretly the bane of Chancellor L'Rell. If she's still in charge, or a loyal successor, Kor just might be sent to "tame" these primitives as busy work. Organia was also going to be the frontlines of a new Federation War, so there might be a bit of "David and Uriah" business going on trying to dispose of Kor and his colleagues.
     
  17. Thanos007

    Thanos007 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I thought it was of strategic value. A jumping off point for either the Federation or the Klingons into the others territory
     
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  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But if the Klingons want to "jump off", why are they wasting time playing with the natives? You don't win wars by building camps and making tea; ask anybody who tried to take Gallipoli!

    We don't see the planet offer the Klingons anything besides a fireplace for Kor to dry his mustache wax with, and a few acres of soil on which to pile munitions. Why would Kor squander strategic initiative for those things, when he could just as well use a portable mustache drier in his cabin and keep the munitions stowed in the very same starship holds in which they arrived to the planet?

    Even if Organia is supposed to serve as a base for a longterm campaign that is expected to make little or no progress (Klingons do love to fight for fighting's sake!), what can the planet ever hope to offer? Breathing air? But starship crews don't exactly suffocate even without shore leave. Taverns and wenches? Surely there's plenty of those at the actual targets of conquest. Fresh food? Surely offering this to the warriors would be counterproductive, as it would be an incentive for them not to be at the front lines.

    Longterm development of the place might be what the Klingons have in mind. But how is this "strategic"? We hear of no natural riches, and mere Class M environs are a dime in a dozen. Anything and everything of strategic value would have to be imported, including fortifications that would make strategic use of the one thing the planet does uniquely offer - that is, location. Omit the planet and you are actually better off.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    Maybe they wanted to build a starbase. The munitions would be used in future defense of said starbase. In the meantime, Kor was to whip the peasantry into submission until the supply ships arrived with planetary starbase making kits.

    Or... more likely just to brutally subjugate some primitive yokels on a border planet so the Federation can come running, cry foul, and let loose the dogs of war.
     
  20. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I figured it was that Organia had large dilithium deposits. The Discovery-inspired notion that L'Rell wanted Kor out of the way obviously wouldn't have occurred to me back then, but it's interesting.

    It's an "empire" because there is ONE Emperor - Kahless. Every other form of leadership that the Empire has had has at least paid lip service to the idea that they are merely administering his empire until his return. (With the possible exception of this L'Rell wanting to be called "Mother" business.) Some may sincerely believe it, but I suspect most simply find it convenient and "patriotic" to wrap themselves in that idea in front of the general Klingon public in much the same way the leadership of some contemporary Earth countries find it convenient to wrap themselves in the flag and/or the cross.
     
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