Klingon/Romulan Empires
- Thread starter cwl
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they're autocratic states. the Klingons, whether they have subject races or not, are ruled by an aristocratic noble class which appoints members to the ruling council, which tends to then appoint the council's leader. unless someone else ascends to rule via the dead-man's boots method. (IE assassinating the incumbant and replacing him) The Romulans, whilst they have elected senators, are equally autocratic. It's not clear just how wide the franchise is for the elections of the senators and an unelected body - the Continuing Commitee - is responsible for the selection of the Senate's head, the Praetor who appears to wield cosniderable power without recourse to the Senate.
the Federation however, seems to run on a democratic basis in which the eligible populace votes in the President.
the Federation however, seems to run on a democratic basis in which the eligible populace votes in the President.
Well, somebody votes for the President, at any rate. Might be an aristocratic nobility just as with the Klingons, for all we know.
The powers of the President are largely unknown. The UFP Council is often said to make the important decisions (even if Starfleet sometimes seems to commit acts of war on its own volition), but what is the President's relation to that body (or to Starfleet, which he forbids from going to war in ST6)?
We can't really tell whether the Klingons or the Romulans have stopped expanding their territories. They probably couldn't be doing it in the direction of the UFP because that territory would already have been split up between the big three. But the "backsides" of the empires could be constantly expanding for all we know. Certainly we hear of Romulans doing a lot of stuff, legitimate as well as illegitimate, outside the Neutral Zone even though supposedly that Zone cannot be penetrated by Romulan vessels...
Timo Saloniemi
The powers of the President are largely unknown. The UFP Council is often said to make the important decisions (even if Starfleet sometimes seems to commit acts of war on its own volition), but what is the President's relation to that body (or to Starfleet, which he forbids from going to war in ST6)?
We can't really tell whether the Klingons or the Romulans have stopped expanding their territories. They probably couldn't be doing it in the direction of the UFP because that territory would already have been split up between the big three. But the "backsides" of the empires could be constantly expanding for all we know. Certainly we hear of Romulans doing a lot of stuff, legitimate as well as illegitimate, outside the Neutral Zone even though supposedly that Zone cannot be penetrated by Romulan vessels...
Timo Saloniemi
The Romulans have a Senate, and if they are based on Rome than that means it would be divided between the "Noble" class (families descended from the leaders of the original Vulcan colonists that settled Romulus?) and the normal Civilians. The Military doesn't dictate policy on Romulus without Senate approval.
The Klingons are more like Feudal Japan, there are Houses that control armies and worlds and the strongest Houses make up the High Council with the strongest one being Chancellor. It's a feudal Military Dictatorship.
The Klingons are more like Feudal Japan, there are Houses that control armies and worlds and the strongest Houses make up the High Council with the strongest one being Chancellor. It's a feudal Military Dictatorship.
Yevetha
Commodore
In the KRAD klingon books klingons have slaves.
Anybody knows how did they get them?
Sometimes.
The Federation's aristocratic elite put a small number of their own up as candidates. Then the general populace can freely vote for any of the provided candidates. Everyone's happy.
There is no evidence that the Federation has an aristocracy of any sort.
hmmm lets take a look at "utopia":
http://canonfodder.ex-astris-scient...vasiveness_of_Starfleet_in_Federation_Society
he Pervasiveness of Starfleet in Federation Society
Imagine you are a Federation citizen and ask yourself if any of these facts would seem a bit disconcerting to you:
- The Federation Council in ST:IV seems to have about a third of it's membership consisting of active duty Starfleet personnel. Picture Congress, Parliament, the UN, etc. consisting of that many active duty military personnel if any at all. It's almost a bit like a more subdued version of 'Starship Troopers.'
- In the few times we've seen one in action, the Federation President's only advisors, apart from a Changeling and the Romulan Ambassador of all people, have been Starfleet personnel exclusively on matters ranging from Earth security to rescue operations that might lead to interstellar war. Not one civilian advisor in sight to argue a non-Starfleet perspective.
- In addition, the President has no security personnel to speak of and is entirely reliant on the goodwill of Starfleet to protect him from harm, which on at least two occasions, has come from... you guessed it, Starfleet.
- Who was solely put in charge of the initiative to sue for peace with the Klingons? Starfleet. Who'd they send? A Captain who openly acknowledged his desire to let the Klingon Empire die by it's own hand. Who tried to sabotage that peace initiative? Starfleet. No civilian ambassadorial ships or at the very least civilian ambassadors could have been present at the opening talks with the Klingons? Sarek pushed for it, where was he? Spock's obviously trustworthy but as a member of Starfleet he is not entirely without conflict of interest.
- Who patrolled the streets of Earth in support of their own proposed Draconian security measures? Starfleet.
- Who got the weak President to institute such security measures without legislative approval by scaring the crap out of him? Starfleet.
- Who is solely responsible for the defense of Earth to the point that if they should become the problem themselves no one would stand in their way? Starfleet. Leyton didn't seem to think he would have much of a problem at all with his coup considering his support personnel seemed to consist of one Excelsior Class ship, some cadets, and assorted Starfleet personnel - though clearly not that many because all it took was capturing Leyton and disabling the Lakota to shut down the entire operation cold. Who did the "Conspiracy" aliens go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation? Starfleet command and captains. Who'd the Katarian Expansionists go after when they wanted to conquer the Federation with a glorified Tetris game? Starfleet. And why? Because they knew they were the entire key to the domination of the Federation.
- Who is in charge of building orbital habitats and housing a large portion of the population? Starfleet. This was Ben Sisko's job after Wolf 359. I mean, if they're your landlords it kind of makes you want to go along with the program so you don't lose your home doesn't it?
- Who's in charge of providing and protecting the key energy resources of Earth and the Federation? Starfleet. Cadets were able to take out the entire power grid of Earth without firing a shot or alerting a soul.
- Who investigates criminal acts of all varieties military and non-military related in or out of Federation territory? Starfleet.
- Who's the final arbiter on what does or does not constitute a lifeform in many cases? Starfleet.
- Who's the final word on the right of a pre-warp society to survive an extinction level event? Starfleet. Indeed individual captain's can make this decision without oversight.
- Who decides on a societies worthiness to join the Federation according to their value system? Starfleet. Again, individual captains can make this call.
- Who inducts new Federation members into the fold? Starfleet in many cases without civilian representatives.
- Who represented at least half of the peace delegation to the Khitomer Accords even though many of their number opposed it? Starfleet.
- Who routinely makes decisions that can and many times do plunge the Federation into war unilaterally without oversight? Starfleet. Picture our modern society but with generals and admirals or even colonels and captains making strategic decisions affecting the lives of billions on their own without civilian government involvement?
- Starfleet has sole authority for strategic weapons release, posessing weapons that can destroy entire planets and even solar systems at their disposal under the sole command of individual captains many times.
The usual ways.
There is, of course, another possibility: That those were Federation Councillors, but that they were not active-duty Starfleet officers, but, rather, former Starfleet officers who retained the prerogative to wear a Starfleet uniform at official functions. It might be a distinctly non-Human tradition the Federation has inherited from some of its more martial cultures, like the Andorians, and it doesn't necessarily mean that Starfleet controls the government.
(I'm tempted to write a fanfic about a proud Starfleet veteran who gets elected to the Federation Council and then ends up fighting the admirals at Starfleet Command all the time, trying to restrict Starfleet's budget and influence on the rest of the Council while always wearing his uniform.
)False. We saw Sarek of Vulcan advising Federation President Ra-ghoratreii, and we saw numerous unnamed civilian advisers in both Star Trek VI and in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost."
That's a bit like criticizing the U.S. President for relying on the goodwill of the Secret Service for protection, or the British Prime Minister for relying on the Special Branch of the London Metropolitan Police.
Or, rather, on criminal conspiracies within Starfleet. Both of which were uncovered and thwarted by Starfleet officers performing their legitimate duty.
False. The Enterprise was sent to escort Chancellor Gorkin and Qo'noS One to Earth for negotiations, out of recognition of and respect for the Klingons' martial inclination to have their most respected adversary be the one who opened the first hand of friendship. The Federation Diplomatic Corps was clearly established to be the organization in charge of the actual negotiations of the Khitomer Accords, not Starfleet.
Because Starfleet is the Federation's military. Should we criticize the British Army for patrolling London during the Blitz?
Repeating yourself. Who thwarted Admiral Leyton's plans? Starfleet.
False. We do not know if there are other military organizations charged with defending Earth; this has been unestablished. The fact that Starfleet is charged with defending Earth is no more meaningful than the fact that the United States Navy is charged with defending the coast of the United States or than that the Royal Air Force is charged with defending British airspace.
Control of a state's military is always key to control of a state.
False. We do not know the details of the development of orbital habitats, but we do know that Sisko's major job between the Saratoga and Deep Space 9 was helping develop the U.S.S. Defiant.
False. There was no indication in "Homefront" that Starfleet routinely operates or controls access to Earth's power distribution system. Though, even if it did, I'm not sure how that's any more disturbing than the fact that the United States Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for developing, building, and maintaining the levee system protecting New Orleans.
False. We've seen plenty of local police forces, and even encountered Federation Security, a sort of Federation FBI, in Star Trek III.
Point of practicality. Starfleet ships are usually out on the frontier, far from communications. Just as captains of the Royal Navy once had considerable leeway to make decisions during the Age of Sail, so too do starship captains.
Actually, both times we see this issue come up in TNG, it's pretty clear that it's out of Picard's hands but then he agrees to break the rules.
False. This is clearly established to be a decision of the Federation Council in "Rapture." The most we ever saw was Captain Picard making a recommendation in TNG's "Attached."
False. We saw plenty of civilian representatives at the only Federation induction ceremony we've ever seen -- Bajor's in "Rapture."
False. We saw numerous Federation civilians in the delegation, well over half.
I seem to remember Sisko coming out of a meeting over subspace with his superiors in "Call to Arms."
This is a function of how powerful starships have to be to defend themselves from foreign starships, and is unavoidable. But frankly any ship capable of warp drive, up to and including a civilian-owned shuttlecraft, is capable of annihilating life on a planet simply by impacting that planet at near-lightspeed, thereby releasing more kinetic energy than any meteor could ever hope. So, again, this is a fairly meaningless statement -- even Bob's Family Shuttle Service could destroy all life on a planet if it wanted.
"The Cloud Minders" made it very clear that the Ardanan aristocracy's days were numbered if Ardana was to stay in the Federation.
Uh, no, no such thing happens at all in the Destiny trilogy.
You seem to be confusing Destiny with the novel TNG novel A Time to Heal, which was published four and a half years before Destiny. You're also not getting your details right.
In this novel, Federation President Min Zife has ordered an illegal invasion and occupation of the independent world of Tezwa, in order to prevent the Klingon Empire from discovering that, in secret, without telling the Federation Council or Starfleet, he had given Tezwa an advanced Federation weapon system during the Dominion War in violation of the Khitomer Accords -- and that by not telling the Klingons about the weapons, he had gotten an entire fleet of Klingon ships destroyed by the now-expansionist Tezwan Prime Minister.
Zife's secret leads to the deaths of thousands of Klingon officers and untold millions of Tezwans in the initial Klingon retaliation. Zife's subsequent Federation occupation leads to the deaths of thousands of Federates at the hands of a Tezwan insurgency. Zife then tries to use Starfleet to plant false evidence implicating the Tholians in the weapons' placement.
Upon uncovering these facts, several admirals within Starfleet Command -- Edward Jellico, William Ross, Alynna Nechayev, Owen Paris, Mamoru Nakamura -- and Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Enterprise, AND the civilian Federation Ambassador to Tezwa, agree that publicly exposing Zife's crimes against the Klingon Empire would lead inevitably to a war between the Federation and the Empire, endangering the existence of the Federation against both internal pressures and external threats. Acknowledging that Zife has committed impeachable offenses but cannot be impeached, they agree to force Zife to resign at gunpoint and hide his reasons for resigning; at no point does Starfleet actually take control of the government. Upon discovering Ross's and Picard's plan, Section 31 decides to intervene, and force Ross to let them assassinate Zife once Zife has resigned. Ross does not alert the other members of the Starfleet conspiracy to Section 31's plans or involvement.
Zife's secret leads to the deaths of thousands of Klingon officers and untold millions of Tezwans in the initial Klingon retaliation. Zife's subsequent Federation occupation leads to the deaths of thousands of Federates at the hands of a Tezwan insurgency. Zife then tries to use Starfleet to plant false evidence implicating the Tholians in the weapons' placement.
Upon uncovering these facts, several admirals within Starfleet Command -- Edward Jellico, William Ross, Alynna Nechayev, Owen Paris, Mamoru Nakamura -- and Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Enterprise, AND the civilian Federation Ambassador to Tezwa, agree that publicly exposing Zife's crimes against the Klingon Empire would lead inevitably to a war between the Federation and the Empire, endangering the existence of the Federation against both internal pressures and external threats. Acknowledging that Zife has committed impeachable offenses but cannot be impeached, they agree to force Zife to resign at gunpoint and hide his reasons for resigning; at no point does Starfleet actually take control of the government. Upon discovering Ross's and Picard's plan, Section 31 decides to intervene, and force Ross to let them assassinate Zife once Zife has resigned. Ross does not alert the other members of the Starfleet conspiracy to Section 31's plans or involvement.
It's certainly not Starfleet's most admirable era, and it's debatable whether they made the right call. But to say that Federation Presidents only serve at Starfleet's pleasure is simply not true.
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Quite right, got the wrong multi part story.
However,
Picard, Jellico, Ross, Nachayev, Paris & Nakamura took it upon themselves to force a democratically elected president to step down while concealing their part in his resignation. Ross is also guilty of accessory to murder. Since nobody else knew of their invilvement there's nothing to stop them from doing the same thing again should THEY decide it's necessary. They may not have seized power for themselves but it was a coup none the less.
From Wikipedia:
A coup d'état (English: /ˌkuːdeɪˈtɑː/, French: [ku deta]; plural: coups d'état)—also known as a coup, putsch, and overthrow—is the sudden, extrajudicial deposition of a government, usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to replace the deposed government with another body; either civil or military.
The fact that the replacement was chosen in an election is irrelevent.
Picard, Jellico, Ross, Nachayev, Paris & Nakamura took it upon themselves to force a democratically elected president to step down while concealing their part in his resignation. Ross is also guilty of accessory to murder. Since nobody else knew of their invilvement there's nothing to stop them from doing the same thing again should THEY decide it's necessary. They may not have seized power for themselves but it was a coup none the less.
From Wikipedia:
A coup d'état (English: /ˌkuːdeɪˈtɑː/, French: [ku deta]; plural: coups d'état)—also known as a coup, putsch, and overthrow—is the sudden, extrajudicial deposition of a government, usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to replace the deposed government with another body; either civil or military.
The fact that the replacement was chosen in an election is irrelevent.
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