Klingon Military System
- Thread starter Dingo
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For some reason, Klingon material in the novels gets a rather "reverential" treatment: much of the modern stuff in there is based very solidly on what has been told in the episodes and movies, and only very carefully and timidly explores beyond, never daring to contradict. Much of the older stuff in turn remains true to the FASA RPG and the classic novel Final Reflection, in both of which John M. Ford used the TOS Klingons as the basis, sprinkled in a rationalization for the TMP Klingon look, and eventually added some characterizations from ST3:TSfS, too.
Basically, we know from "canon" that Klingons have the following ranks:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_ranks
(Nitpicker's note: the rank of "Sergeant" is gleaned from end credits of ST3 only, and never mentioned or otherwise indicated on screen...)
Modern novels follow that to the hilt. Since most Klingon ground formations have been shown operating without much in the way of organization, we could well speculate that they are principally made up of Bekk, or Warriors, and that the higher ranks are only involved in the "planning stages" and do not actively try to lead the rampaging formations. Thus, Klingons wouldn't really have anything akin to Sergeants, or at least the rank system within the Bekk category would be very loose and always subject to challenges and change.
That sounds like yer typical medieval army, really: the noblemen (the officers) are careful about their rank and position, and well organized, but the actual cannonfodder fighters are disorganized rabble, with just a few elite units thrown in.
Also, the rank system for the noblemen would probably be top-heavy, as every House would participate by sending its own officers and men and ships, and every fighting House of any worth would probably warrant a General of its own. There could be Generals commanding 500 men, and Generals commanding 50,000 or 500,000.
Perhaps only the wealthiest Houses operate significant numbers of ships, and thus give rise to Admirals, whereas most Houses supply ground warriors, and thus sponsor Generals? That could explain the seeming imbalance in "navy" and "army" ranks: there are indeed two separate rank systems, but the "navy" is practically subservient to the "army" and mainly moves the latter to the battlefields - again in medieval style. In that style, the "army" would play a major role in shipboard fighting as well, and only the top officers of the ship, plus the few sailors needed for moving the highly automated vessels, would be "navy".
Speculation upon speculation there... The novels don't explicate, nor do they explore or experiment much.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, we know from "canon" that Klingons have the following ranks:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_ranks
(Nitpicker's note: the rank of "Sergeant" is gleaned from end credits of ST3 only, and never mentioned or otherwise indicated on screen...)
Modern novels follow that to the hilt. Since most Klingon ground formations have been shown operating without much in the way of organization, we could well speculate that they are principally made up of Bekk, or Warriors, and that the higher ranks are only involved in the "planning stages" and do not actively try to lead the rampaging formations. Thus, Klingons wouldn't really have anything akin to Sergeants, or at least the rank system within the Bekk category would be very loose and always subject to challenges and change.
That sounds like yer typical medieval army, really: the noblemen (the officers) are careful about their rank and position, and well organized, but the actual cannonfodder fighters are disorganized rabble, with just a few elite units thrown in.
Also, the rank system for the noblemen would probably be top-heavy, as every House would participate by sending its own officers and men and ships, and every fighting House of any worth would probably warrant a General of its own. There could be Generals commanding 500 men, and Generals commanding 50,000 or 500,000.
Perhaps only the wealthiest Houses operate significant numbers of ships, and thus give rise to Admirals, whereas most Houses supply ground warriors, and thus sponsor Generals? That could explain the seeming imbalance in "navy" and "army" ranks: there are indeed two separate rank systems, but the "navy" is practically subservient to the "army" and mainly moves the latter to the battlefields - again in medieval style. In that style, the "army" would play a major role in shipboard fighting as well, and only the top officers of the ship, plus the few sailors needed for moving the highly automated vessels, would be "navy".
Speculation upon speculation there... The novels don't explicate, nor do they explore or experiment much.
Timo Saloniemi
the IKS Gorkon novels use the ranks of Bekk, Leader and QaS DevwI' - Leaders are squad leaders, commanding five warriors (inc. themselves) with the QaS DevwI' commanding a troop of fifteen squads. The QaS DevwI' of 1st Company is the commander of all ground troops.
the squads and companies descend in seniority based on numbers. IE best troops getting the plum assignments are 1st Squad, 1st Company. 15/1 would be the lowest squad of the 1st Company, but still higher up the chain than 1st/2nd Company. the lowest would be 15th/15th.
i highly recommend the three IKS Gorkon novels and the follow-on Klingon Empire: A Burning House of you want deep insight into the KDF and the wider Empire.
the squads and companies descend in seniority based on numbers. IE best troops getting the plum assignments are 1st Squad, 1st Company. 15/1 would be the lowest squad of the 1st Company, but still higher up the chain than 1st/2nd Company. the lowest would be 15th/15th.
i highly recommend the three IKS Gorkon novels and the follow-on Klingon Empire: A Burning House of you want deep insight into the KDF and the wider Empire.
^ It doesn't, really. It gives the Klingon ranks as such:
Bekk (Warrior) - equivalent to Ensign, most likely
Lieutenant
Commander
Captain
Colonel
Brigadier
General
Two things:
- 'Sergeant' only appears in the credits. We never hear the guy actually called that. And in any case, it's an enlisted rank.
- 'Admiral' only appears in ENT's two parter (Affliction/Divergence). This could be a translation issue from Klingonese to English, i.e. a reason why we never hear any Admirals after that. The translation could have been refined sometime after that to the point where only the word General is used. That would seem to fit the Klingon mindset closer...meaning, a General who leads his crew into battle, not an 'Admiral' which does tend to bring to mind a desk bound bureaucrat, which Klingons definitely would not want.
Bekk (Warrior) - equivalent to Ensign, most likely
Lieutenant
Commander
Captain
Colonel
Brigadier
General
Two things:
- 'Sergeant' only appears in the credits. We never hear the guy actually called that. And in any case, it's an enlisted rank.
- 'Admiral' only appears in ENT's two parter (Affliction/Divergence). This could be a translation issue from Klingonese to English, i.e. a reason why we never hear any Admirals after that. The translation could have been refined sometime after that to the point where only the word General is used. That would seem to fit the Klingon mindset closer...meaning, a General who leads his crew into battle, not an 'Admiral' which does tend to bring to mind a desk bound bureaucrat, which Klingons definitely would not want.
Let's also remember that numerous Klingon warship types are shown to be capable of atmospheric operations, and presumably in landing on planetary surfaces, and willing to engage in same. One might argue that Klingons don't really believe in a separate "navy" as such, but instead believe in one integrated battlefield where the same warriors deliver dagger thrusts, artillery fire, orbital bombardment, and disruptor blasts that rip open enemy starships; hence the presence of Generals aboard starships and in command of starship formations.
Although to be sure, we do not know that Klingon Generals would command starship formations. All we know is that General Martok was Gowron's close aide in the invasion of Cardassia, and later led the joint 9th Fleet along with Admiral Ross. But it's quite possible that all Klingon fleets were led by Admirals, and that Ross was the Admiral leading both the Klingon and Federation ships of the 9th Fleet, whereas General Martok was in charge of both the Klingon and Federation ground troops... Just as he was in charge of boarding and planetary assault forces when serving as Gowron's right hand in "Way of the Warrior".
Other Klingon Generals have not been shown commanding ship formations. General Korrd of ST5:TFF fame was an old warrior known to Kirk, but he was never stated to be Kirk's direct nemesis in "naval" warfare. General Chang only ever had one starship to his name, AFAWK. The other Generals are background semi-characters (most of them only mentioned in name) who either reside aboard a specific starship or then are unrelated to starship action altogether.
Timo Saloniemi
Although to be sure, we do not know that Klingon Generals would command starship formations. All we know is that General Martok was Gowron's close aide in the invasion of Cardassia, and later led the joint 9th Fleet along with Admiral Ross. But it's quite possible that all Klingon fleets were led by Admirals, and that Ross was the Admiral leading both the Klingon and Federation ships of the 9th Fleet, whereas General Martok was in charge of both the Klingon and Federation ground troops... Just as he was in charge of boarding and planetary assault forces when serving as Gowron's right hand in "Way of the Warrior".
Other Klingon Generals have not been shown commanding ship formations. General Korrd of ST5:TFF fame was an old warrior known to Kirk, but he was never stated to be Kirk's direct nemesis in "naval" warfare. General Chang only ever had one starship to his name, AFAWK. The other Generals are background semi-characters (most of them only mentioned in name) who either reside aboard a specific starship or then are unrelated to starship action altogether.
Timo Saloniemi
Martok led fleets into battle all the time. I'd trust that more than anything else.
And as I said, using the term 'General' would fit more with Klingon psychology, of a leader who is down in the trenches with his men. The word 'Admiral' is more distant, implying that the officer only stays on board his ship and does everything from there. That doesn't sound like something a Klingon would do.
And as I said, using the term 'General' would fit more with Klingon psychology, of a leader who is down in the trenches with his men. The word 'Admiral' is more distant, implying that the officer only stays on board his ship and does everything from there. That doesn't sound like something a Klingon would do.
What, space warriors are supposed to abandon their ships, go outside, and hack at enemy ships with their swords?
Admirals have traditionally been in the thick of things, exactly as vulnerable as the lowest ableseaman when aboard the fighting vessels, whereas most generals of late have cowered behind desks far away from battlefields, only randomly facing the threats that kill their infantrymen. This is reflected somewhat on the numbers of admirals lost in combat vs. the number of generals lost...
Timo Saloniemi
Admirals have traditionally been in the thick of things, exactly as vulnerable as the lowest ableseaman when aboard the fighting vessels, whereas most generals of late have cowered behind desks far away from battlefields, only randomly facing the threats that kill their infantrymen. This is reflected somewhat on the numbers of admirals lost in combat vs. the number of generals lost...
Timo Saloniemi
in the aforementioned Gorkon novels, there are generals commanding battle groups of ships.
am i on ignore for people or what?
am i on ignore for people or what?
Just contrasting aired material with written, is all...
Eisenhower and MacArthur led fleets into battle, too. They had assorted Admirals as their underlings, but since the purpose of the battle was to enable later ground battle, Generals were in overall command. Martok could be that sort of a general - his Founder duplicate explicitly is in "Way of the Warrior", after all.
It's a possibility, that's all I'm saying. The Klingon rank system might be fairly conventional, and the Universal Translator would not be incorrect in making a distinction between Admirals and Generals. The nature of campaigns would decide which type of leader would be more prominent: Admirals in something like the cold war of Final Reflection where fleets move like chess pieces and Marines wait for their turn, but Generals in something like the Dominion War where fleets move in order to capture territory.
Timo Saloniemi
Eisenhower and MacArthur led fleets into battle, too. They had assorted Admirals as their underlings, but since the purpose of the battle was to enable later ground battle, Generals were in overall command. Martok could be that sort of a general - his Founder duplicate explicitly is in "Way of the Warrior", after all.
It's a possibility, that's all I'm saying. The Klingon rank system might be fairly conventional, and the Universal Translator would not be incorrect in making a distinction between Admirals and Generals. The nature of campaigns would decide which type of leader would be more prominent: Admirals in something like the cold war of Final Reflection where fleets move like chess pieces and Marines wait for their turn, but Generals in something like the Dominion War where fleets move in order to capture territory.
Timo Saloniemi
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