Kirk's infinitly old glasses

[Alidar Jarok]

The glasses that Kirk gives to the dealer *won't* eventually become the ones he gets in the future. Indeed, they can't be, because with enough trips around the time loop, they'd eventually crumble away to dust.

They don't age more through an extra loops. They only age the time it takes to go from TVH to TWOK (300 years). They aren't infinitely repeating the same events, it's just the effect preceding the cause. It's a paradox, but that's it. The glasses could be sold by Kirk, bought by McCoy, given to Kirk who sells them back to the same store McCoy sells it to. It might not follow linear logic, but it's fine for time travel logic.

It's just a joke, though, so nobody should overthink it (if you do, conclude that the Vulcan Science Directorate is correct).

 

[Doug Otte]

In the early 21th century, I have glasses with glass lenses.

...and you have a lithp, too!

Doug

 

[Davros]

By bringing the glasses back in time there would simply be 2 pairs of glasses.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

By bringing the glasses back in time there would simply be 2 pairs of glasses.

And if the two touch... KABOOM!

If I understand physics correctly

 

[DonIago]

^Doc Brown approves.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They don't age more through an extra loops. They only age the time it takes to go from TVH to TWOK (300 years). They aren't infinitely repeating the same events, it's just the effect preceding the cause.

I'm not following.

I realize that they only age from 1986 (when Kirk gives them to the antique dealer) to 2286 (when the 'present' portion of ST 4 happens), but if the same pair of glasses is then taken back in time, then it ages another 300 years. And it is then taken back again, and ages 300 *more* years. If this happens enough, then the glasses will break or otherwise age until they "die". At some point they will become unusable.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They don't age more through an extra loops. They only age the time it takes to go from TVH to TWOK (300 years). They aren't infinitely repeating the same events, it's just the effect preceding the cause.

I'm not following.

I realize that they only age from 1986 (when Kirk gives them to the antique dealer) to 2286 (when the 'present' portion of ST 4 happens), but if the same pair of glasses is then taken back in time, then it ages another 300 years. And it is then taken back again, and ages 300 *more* years. If this happens enough, then the glasses will break or otherwise age until they "die". At some point they will become unusable.

Were they metal or plastic?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't know. Metal, probably. In which case they'll eventually rust.

Whatever the glasses are made out of, they *will* deteriorate and fall apart. There's no such thing as a completely indestructible material. Entropy will win out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't know. Metal, probably. In which case they'll eventually rust.

Whatever the glasses are made out of, they *will* deteriorate and fall apart. There's no such thing as a completely indestructible material. Entropy will win out.

That would depent on the metal, the time involved and how they are cared for. Not sure if the time involved for those particular glasses is long enough for serious deterioration, given they seemed to be stored in a "safe" place.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But don't you see? If you buy the 'paradox', then the glasses will make, or attempt to make, an INFINITE number of trips around the loop. They would have to break down before that could actually occur (they don't magically become brand-new when they are carried back in time). The paradox would not be able to continue. So therefore it isn't really a paradox.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^ But don't you see? If you buy the 'paradox', then the glasses will make, or attempt to make, an INFINITE number of trips around the loop. They would have to break down before that could actually occur (they don't magically become brand-new when they are carried back in time). The paradox would not be able to continue. So therefore it isn't really a paradox.

No its a paraglasses

 

[Timewalker]

I think the writers were clearly making a temporal loop joke, and those who don't acknowledge that are overthinking it. I believe that as the line states, 'they will be again' infers that those glasses are now back in time, for McCoy to one day purchase and give to him 'again' as the line states. That's the beauty of it.

The glasses that Kirk gives to the dealer *won't* eventually become the ones he gets in the future. Indeed, they can't be, because with enough trips around the time loop, they'd eventually crumble away to dust.

They don't age more through an extra loops. They only age the time it takes to go from TVH to TWOK (300 years). They aren't infinitely repeating the same events, it's just the effect preceding the cause. It's a paradox, but that's it. The glasses could be sold by Kirk, bought by McCoy, given to Kirk who sells them back to the same store McCoy sells it to. It might not follow linear logic, but it's fine for time travel logic.

No, NO, NO!!!

The glasses do NOT age an extra 300 years ad infinitum until they crumble into dust. Do Kirk and the others age an extra 300 years? Do they drop dead from old age?

No, they do not. The reason is the difference between OBJECTIVE TIME and SUBJECTIVE TIME.

Consider: The glasses were manufactured somewhere, by somebody in the 1700s. They existed both objectively/subjectively for several hundred years until McCoy bought them for Kirk. For whatever reason (it's not really important), they broke during the events of TWoK. During the events of TVH, Kirk and the glasses went back in time.

Now this time trip, from Kirk's (and the glasses') SUBJECTIVE point of view, took only a few minutes. But they traveled 300 years through OBJECTIVE time. So neither Kirk nor the glasses aged more than a few minutes.

As for there being two pairs of glasses, again, nope. Consider:

Glasses made--------> Glasses eventually bought in AN antique shop by McCoy---------> Glasses get broken----------> Kirk & glasses go back in time--------> Kirk sells glasses to AN antique dealer (implied, but not definite that it's the same store McCoy bought them from)---------> We never see or hear of the glasses again.

Therefore:

The glasses were created, existed, and ended up in a causal time loop between 1986 and whatever year it was in the beginning of TVH. The glasses never exist beyond the year when Kirk and the others go back in time. So there was only ever ONE pair of glasses!

So therefore it isn't really a paradox.

No its a paraglasses

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Glasses made--------> Glasses eventually bought in AN antique shop by McCoy---------> Glasses get broken----------> Kirk & glasses go back in time--------> Kirk sells glasses to AN antique dealer (implied, but not definite that it's the same store McCoy bought them from)---------> We never see or hear of the glasses again.

We never saw McCoy originally buy the glasses, but I find it highly likely that he did it in his own time period - the 23rd century. So unless the antique dealer was a Time Lord, there's no way it could be the same one.

Still, forgetting that bit, what you're suggesting isn't what some others are. They are implying that when Kirk gives the glasses to the antique dealer in 1986, then that very same frame is used to make the glasses which McCoy will eventually buy in the future. That's not what you're intending, is it? In your case, then, there is no loop at all.

 

[Timewalker]

Glasses made--------> Glasses eventually bought in AN antique shop by McCoy---------> Glasses get broken----------> Kirk & glasses go back in time--------> Kirk sells glasses to AN antique dealer (implied, but not definite that it's the same store McCoy bought them from)---------> We never see or hear of the glasses again.

We never saw McCoy originally buy the glasses, but I find it highly likely that he did it in his own time period - the 23rd century. So unless the antique dealer was a Time Lord, there's no way it could be the same one.

Still, forgetting that bit, what you're suggesting isn't what some others are. They are implying that when Kirk gives the glasses to the antique dealer in 1986, then that very same frame is used to make the glasses which McCoy will eventually buy in the future. That's not what you're intending, is it? In your case, then, there is no loop at all.

Where did I suggest McCoy bought the glasses in any other time BUT the 23rd century?

I am suggesting that the store where Kirk sold the glasses in 1986 might not be the same store where McCoy bought the glasses 300 years later. As was noted upthread, it's unlikely the same store would be in business for 300 years, with the glasses remaining there all that time. It's just possible that the glasses had more than one owner between Kirk and McCoy/Kirk.

I'm saying it's the SAME PAIR OF GLASSES. There is only ONE pair of glasses, and yes, they do end up in a causal loop, back and forth between the 20th and 23rd centuries.

 

[scotpens]

It still seems silly the lenses would be made of glass. Even if McCoy came across 400 year-old glasses with 400-year-old lenses in them that doesn't mean the prescription in those lenses will match Kirk's. So the prescroption to those lenses would have to be made and it seems odd that even in the 1980s when the movie were made glasses lenses were made of plastic. Glass should be an antiquated idea to people in the 23rd C.

Glass has been around for thousands of years. Why wouldn't it still be used in the 23rd century? And aren't some eyeglass lenses still made of glass even today? Even the hardest polycarbonate plastic gets scratched. Glass doesn't. I've been using the same pair of high-quality, non-prescription sunglasses with glass lenses since 1972, and they're still in perfect condition. Of course, they haven't been through several time loops.

There's nothing to indicate Kirk even needed prescription lenses. If he had normal vision and was starting to experience the nearsightedness that comes with middle age, he could have done perfectly well with non-prescription reading glasses, the kind you can buy in any drugstore today.

By bringing the glasses back in time there would simply be 2 pairs of glasses.

And if the two touch... KABOOM!

If I understand physics correctly

Would that result in the destruction of both pairs of glasses, or the complete annihilation of the entire universe, or something in between?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm saying it's the SAME PAIR OF GLASSES. There is only ONE pair of glasses, and yes, they do end up in a causal loop, back and forth between the 20th and 23rd centuries.

But you also claimed that the glasses were, in fact, manufactured. How can this be true, if you also claim that they are in a causal loop? If they are in a loop, then they never WERE manufactured - Kirk gives them to the dealer in 1986, they survive until the 23rd century where McCoy buys them, they are taken back in time, where they are given to the dealer in 1986, etc. etc. In this case, they were never actually "built". And if this is true, then they are infinitely old...

 

[Saul]

They are in a way the same glasses. The Lenses are replaced and later the frame is replaced by one just like it. Then later when Bones is getting Kirk a pair he keeps the frame and puts new lenses in it. Problem solved.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They are in a way the same glasses. The Lenses are replaced and later the frame is replaced by one just like it.

But then they're not the same glasses anymore, if the lenses and the frame are different...

 

[Timewalker]

I'm saying it's the SAME PAIR OF GLASSES. There is only ONE pair of glasses, and yes, they do end up in a causal loop, back and forth between the 20th and 23rd centuries.

But you also claimed that the glasses were, in fact, manufactured. How can this be true, if you also claim that they are in a causal loop? If they are in a loop, then they never WERE manufactured - Kirk gives them to the dealer in 1986, they survive until the 23rd century where McCoy buys them, they are taken back in time, where they are given to the dealer in 1986, etc. etc. In this case, they were never actually "built". And if this is true, then they are infinitely old...

Sheesh, please read some TIME TRAVEL STORIES!

At some point in the 1700s, somebody made a pair of glasses. The glasses existed quite normally until McCoy bought them in the 23rd century. THE LENSES DON'T MATTER! The frame is (we're made to understand) the original. McCoy gives Kirk the glasses in the 23rd century, and he has them with him when he travels to 1986. He sells them to an antique dealer - not necessarily the same store where McCoy bought them; the only object that is explicitly said to be THE SAME is the glasses.

So the glasses can be thought of as having a normal life until they get trapped in a time loop - sort of like they are having their own version of "Groundhog Day", except that for them it never ends.

Really, you're not suggesting that something came from nothing, are you?

 

[Broccoli]

So, you are suggesting that there are two pairs of the same frames out there then? With one much older than the other (given one was three hundred years old already before going back in time).