Kirk's execution of Nero/Optimus Prime "Any Last Words?" TF2

[Cadet49]

In both Star Trek 2009 and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, both written by the same writers, I found myself quite disturbed by how two characters I admired as a child, Captain Kirk and Optimus Prime, seemed to execute their downed opponents when those opponents were no longer able to fight back any longer. In Trek, Kirk blows away Nero and his crew when they refuse to surrender, even through the enemy warship is disabled.

In Revenge of the Fallen, Optimus Prime appears to mercilessly execute a downed Decepticon who is no longer a threat, with other autobots and army personnel looking on. Prime even says, "Any last words?", as though he's relishing killing this Decepticon.

These are not the actions of the original characters the new versions are based on. True, the original Kirk and Optimus Prime killed, but only when they seemed to have no choice, it seemed - Kirk didn't blow away the Gorn at the end of Arena, even though he originally wanted to - the Gorn had killed many humans. At the heart of his character, Kirk got angry at injustice, but he was a moral, compassionate character at the core, even to his enemies.

This makes me a bit nervous for the next Star Trek movie, because I wonder if we'll see Kirk just blowing away enemies without mercy. I don't mind a Star Trek full of action, as long as it doesn't lose its heart. This is not Die Hard.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Kirk offered to help Nero. And the Gorn didn't commit genocide.

This is not Die Hard.

That was "Starship Mine"

 

[Captaindemotion]

Haven't seeTransformers (nor do I ever intend or hope to) but Kirk's actions were not unlike those of 'Prime Kirk' (not Optimus Prime!) near the end of The Search for Spock. He offered Kruge an extended hand to pull him up from the ledge. But when Kruge refused the offer of truce and tried to throw Kirk off, Kirk had no hesitation in booting him off the ledge, saying 'I - have - had - enough - of - you!'

Coincidentally, just now that I think about it, Prime Kirk was dealing with the man who killed his son, nuKirk with the man who killed his father.

 

[shapeshifter]

^Correct.

IMO, mostly all Trek series after TOS over-coddled terrorists. Too politically correct compared to the Cowboy diplomacy Kirk exhibited. (The Sisko and Janeway excepted)

Kirk, just as Pine as Kirk did, gave the bad guy a chance to reconsider the error of his ways and change his path, but when they chose the wrong answer he, having exhausted all diplomatic options, blew them out out sky.

Kirk knows the enemy, knows when any plea for mercy will be ploys to buy time to eventually attack again. I love the "no more playing" attitude of Kirk. Both of them.

 

[BillJ]

Haven't seeTransformers (nor do I ever intend or hope to) but Kirk's actions were not unlike those of 'Prime Kirk' (not Optimus Prime!) near the end of The Search for Spock. He offered Kruge an extended hand to pull him up from the ledge. But when Kruge refused the offer of truce and tried to throw Kirk off, Kirk had no hesitation in booting him off the ledge, saying 'I - have - had - enough - of - you!'

Coincidentally, just now that I think about it, Prime Kirk was dealing with the man who killed his son, nuKirk with the man who killed his father.

I think there is a world of difference between Kirk's actions in regards to Kruge and the actions of nuKirk. If Kirk doesn't shake Kruge loose he's going into the drink with him while nuKirk's foe was already beaten and no longer a threat.

Doesn't mean I disagree with the actions of nuKirk but the situations are totally different.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Wasn't Kirk willing to let the Klingon Empire die at the start of STVI? "Let them die!"

 

[BillJ]

Wasn't Kirk willing to let the Klingon Empire die at the start of STVI? "Let them die!"

I know that everyone likes to get their collective panties in a bunch whenever this particular scene comes up, but...

Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe Kirk and Spock are discussing the Klingon Empire as a political entity? Surely, two of Starfleet's best and brightest don't think that every Klingon everywhere is going to die as a result of Praxis?

Was Kirk wrong in his assessment? Of course. Praxis was a turning point for the Klingon Empire. The Federation either stepped in and helped, which would have the bonus of information being more freely exchanged between the two sides and the Klingon populace learning the Federation aren't the terror that their government made them out to be. Or the Klingons "attempt a military solution", lose a bloody, protracted war and end up being occupied by the Federation.

"Let them die" is a direct reference to allowing the Klingon government to collapse under the weight of years of mismanagement. Like the Soviet Union.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ I always like Shatner's comment, to the effect that after saying that line, he pulled a face as if to say 'I didn't really mean that!', that it was said in the heat of the moment. The reaction, unfortunately was cut from the movie, as I recall, but I like to think that Kirk blurted it out without thinking and immediately regretted it.

 

[Gojira]

Wasn't Kirk willing to let the Klingon Empire die at the start of STVI? "Let them die!"

I also think Kirk treated Nero much better than Kruge which he gave several kicks in the face while saying "I have had enough of you!!!"

 

[BillJ]

I also think Kirk treated Nero much better than Kruge which he gave several kicks in the face while saying "I have had enough of you!!!"

You're talking about after the ledge collapsed from under Kruge and Kirk offered him his hand in an attempt to save his life? Which Kruge rewarded by grabbing Kirk's ankle and trying to pull him down as well?

Yeah... I'd have kicked him in the face too.

 

[Gojira]

I also think Kirk treated Nero much better than Kruge which he gave several kicks in the face while saying "I have had enough of you!!!"

You're talking about after the ledge collapsed from under Kruge and Kirk offered him his hand in an attempt to save his life? Which Kruge rewarded by grabbing Kirk's ankle and trying to pull him down as well?

Yeah... I'd have kicked him in the face too.

Yup, that is the scene and I think that this new movie is congruent with that. Kirk offers Nero help and it is refused and the villain suffers the consequence of that refusal.

 

[Gojira]

Haven't seeTransformers (nor do I ever intend or hope to) but Kirk's actions were not unlike those of 'Prime Kirk' (not Optimus Prime!) near the end of The Search for Spock. He offered Kruge an extended hand to pull him up from the ledge. But when Kruge refused the offer of truce and tried to throw Kirk off, Kirk had no hesitation in booting him off the ledge, saying 'I - have - had - enough - of - you!'

Coincidentally, just now that I think about it, Prime Kirk was dealing with the man who killed his son, nuKirk with the man who killed his father.

I think there is a world of difference between Kirk's actions in regards to Kruge and the actions of nuKirk. If Kirk doesn't shake Kruge loose he's going into the drink with him while nuKirk's foe was already beaten and no longer a threat.

Doesn't mean I disagree with the actions of nuKirk but the situations are totally different.

yes the circumstances are different but the intent is very similar. Help is offered help is refused (albeit the refusals are different) but each villain does suffer the consequences of their choices.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk offers Nero help and it is refused and the villain suffers the consequence of that refusal.

Kirk is right because he cannot be sure that Nero won't survive the trip through the black hole and again cause chaos somewhere else in the timeline. Unlike Kruge, Nero no longer posed a threat to Kirk.

 

[Gojira]

Kirk offers Nero help and it is refused and the villain suffers the consequence of that refusal.

Kirk is right because he cannot be sure that Nero won't survive the trip through the black hole and again cause chaos somewhere else in the timeline. Unlike Kruge, Nero no longer posed a threat to Kirk.

Correct. While not a threat to Kirk Nero could still pass through the Black Hole and be a threat to someone so he had to betaken out if he wasn't going to allow himself to be taken into custody.

 

[Greg Cox]

From "Friday's Child" (1967):

Spock: "Revenge, captain?"

Kirk (shrugs): "Why not?"

 

[NuFan]

From "Friday's Child" (1967):

Spock: "Revenge, captain?"

Kirk (shrugs): "Why not?"

Hah!

 

[sonak]

Nero was an insane genocidal terrorist who had just refused a request for surrender during what was basically a battle or war. Kirk was fully justified in what he did.

 

[Gojira]

Why doesn't anyone seem to have a problem with Spock being pretty willing to let Nero have it?

 

[UFO]

Kirk offers Nero help and it is refused and the villain suffers the consequence of that refusal.

Kirk is right because he cannot be sure that Nero won't survive the trip through the black hole and again cause chaos somewhere else in the timeline. Unlike Kruge, Nero no longer posed a threat to Kirk.

Correct. While not a threat to Kirk Nero could still pass through the Black Hole and be a threat to someone so he had to betaken out if he wasn't going to allow himself to be taken into custody.

Actually he suffered a little more than the consequences of that refusal, which is the point. I say "a little" because I don't think Kirk's actions contributed much to the actual demolition job the black hole was already doing. Perhaps hastened it by a few milliseconds. Certainly not enough to justify Kirk's actions if that had been the movie's intention, which it clearly wasn't. Indeed the only reason Kirk offered help in the first place was for purely political, not humanitarian reasons.

Why didn't they just beam Nero and co over against their will? What? They need a double transporter lock or something? If they needed that sort of mucking around it was a hollow offer anyway, given they barely had time to escape themselves.

No, lets not delude ourselves with that "Kirk had to open fire to protect Nero's possible future victims" business. Never mind the writer's intentions, the movie (Kirk's words and actions etc) shows that had nothing to do with it. As far as I am aware the only ones suggesting it are fans of STXI trying to find an excuse for something they know Prime Kirk would not have done.

NuKirk actually states Nero's ship is "... too close to the singularity to survive without assistance". That kind of begs the question of how close to the singularity you get when you are passing though a wormhole? Oh well, the film changes the rules as the plot demands, so lets ignore that. Anyway sure, Kirk may have been wrong, though it seems very unlikely (Nero's ship is a twisted wreck due to the black hole by the time it disappears). But clearly that possibility had no bearing on his decision. All we see is Kirk taking a few fairly ineffectual parting shots at Nero when he is already down and on the way to being out.

From "Friday's Child" (1967):

Spock: "Revenge, captain?"

Kirk (shrugs): "Why not?"

*** Edit: In the following paragraph I have changed the Klingon's name to "Kras" (which I hope is correct!). Originally I mistakenly called him "Kruge".

Once again the difference here is that Kirk and Spock were in a fight for their lives with Kras. Or does anyone really think that if Kras had been merely wounded and helpless after the battle, Kirk would walked up to him and finished him off? We all know that's where the "Why not?" clause would have kicked in. No, Prime Kirk isn't perfect, but if he had to kill something/one I don't recall it was ever purely for revenge.

But let’s suppose the search for such an example succeeds. All that would be accomplished is to drag Prime Kirk down to NuKirk's level. Rather a pyrrhic victory, don't you think?

Having said all that, for me it would go along way to putting things right if, in the next movie, Kirk admitted his error. Sadly I can't see that happening.

Why doesn't anyone seem to have a problem with Spock being pretty willing to let Nero have it?

I do. It's symptomatic of his "humanisation" in my view, even allowing for Vulcans being more ruthless. But in the end it was Kirk's decision.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock recommending killing Gary Mitchell way back in WNMHGB. As shown by what happened, it was the right choice and Kirk should have listened.