Kirk's death

[RobertScorpio]

I keep reading how they handled Kirk’s death wrong. How he should have died on the bridge of a ship, one last epic battle…BLAH BLAH BLAH…

Most heroes do not get to chose when they die. I know; I was in the military. I have lost some good friends and none of them got their death’s published in a paper. They died when a road-side bomb went off an killed them, or, were killed fighting in some far off village, fighting in a war that most of their peers back at home couldn’t care a shit about.

Kirk died protecting millions of beings who will probably never know who he was. He went with Picard, and accomplished what they set out to do. Kirk died falling off a mountain side; no glory there. And that is why his death was, to me, well done. BERMAN and MOORE and SHATNER can all look back and think it was the wrong thing to do, now. But I remember the interviews that came out back then, and one of them mentioned this ‘small’ death of Kirk’s as really an act of a hero. I hadn’t lost any friends at that time, but now I have, and now I understand.

Kirk’s death was going to happen whether or not Shatner wanted it. They had to kill off Kirk so as to eliminate the fans crying for his return had the TNG movie’s failed. It made sense then, and it was done.

I think, as time passes, GENERATIONS is showing that it was a better film than FIRST CONTACT. It had a better “theme”. Picard, Kirk, Data, Soran are all learning lessons about time and how to cope with it.

FC is just another simple action movie that totally GUTS the Borg, and rewrites Trek history (sticking the Queen in those flashbacks of BOWB) all because of the desire to titillate 14 year-old boys with a horny Borg Queen. They took everything that Q/Guinan said the Borg were and then stepped all over it, thus making Q/Guinan look like idiots, all so that they could give the Borg a voice to reason with. That was a bad idea; one that Voyager, IMO, made even worse with their use of the Queen as well. Leave it to TREK writers to take a really good idea (the Borg) and ruin it.

Kirk died well…the Borg didn’t.

Rob

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Well firstly Kirk actually died in a alternate timeline because in the first timeline Soren wins and makes it into the Nexus, end of story..... Picard then goes back in time and changes everything, so in effect we have a new time line created by Picard changing the events of the past.

So the real kirk lives in one timeline in the nexus with Antonia, and his horses, and his dog, and big massive eggs for breakfast, and he also dies in the alternate time line that Picard created.

Simple, and everybody wins.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Why was it necessary again to save the inhabitants of Veridian IV?

A non-warp civilization should have no guardian angel. Soran wasn't bound by the Prime Directive and it is not even clear that this was Federation territory.


For this I lost Kirk and the Ent-D?



Generations was indeed the best TNG film however.

 

[JustKate]

I also have never understood why so many people think Kirk didn't die well - didn't die a hero's death. A heroic death doesn't require a lot of pyrotechnics and all that crap. It just requires someone to be doing something heroic - something selfless - as he/she dies. Is a cop less than a hero if he is shot while responding to a bank hold-up than he would be if he was shot by a terrorist? No, of course not. If he died while trying to do his duty to protect the public, that's all it takes.

Kirk died trying to save the galaxy. How much more heroic does a death have to be?

 

[apenpaap]

Why was it necessary again to save the inhabitants of Veridian IV?

A non-warp civilization should have no guardian angel. Soran wasn't bound by the Prime Directive and it is not even clear that this was Federation territory.


For this I lost Kirk and the Ent-D?



Generations was indeed the best TNG film however.

Earth is a pre-warp civilization too, ATM. If some madman would decide to blow up the Sun, and there were two guys out there who could stop it, you would say "Nah, just let him blow up the Sun."?

I agree Generations is the best Trek film.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Earth is a pre-warp civilization too, ATM. If some madman would decide to blow up the Sun, and there were two guys out there who could stop it, you would say "Nah, just let him blow up the Sun."?

I agree Generations is the best Trek film.

Except Picard and the Federation in general are quite willing to let cultures go extinct. The inhabbitants of Boraal II were going to be wiped out until Worf's brother broke the rules. Data also breaks the rules with his actions on Drema IV.

Good intentions get you nothing but planets contaminated by Nazism, Chicago mobsterism, dead eco-systems from anti-matter etc, etc.

Soran was a criminal but I don't see the point going after him since he was adamant about comitting suicide in the Nexus. The Duras sisters did have stolen Fed propertry(and a hostage) so maybe the plot could have been rewritten around that.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Soran was a criminal but I don't see the point going after him since he was adamant about comitting suicide in the Nexus. The Duras sisters did have stolen Fed propertry so maybe the plot could have been rewritten around that.

Poor Geordi... you would have simply declared him MIA and would have left him in the hands of Soran and the Duras sisters.



Anyway, that the Federation tries to save pre-warp civilizations from catastrophes those civilizations are unaware of is not unprecedented. See Miramenee's planet for example. You may argue that the intervention at Veridian is even more justifiable, because it isn't even a "natural disaster" like a asteroid imact. Hell, in Drema IV's case the Enterprise-D even stopped a natural disaster the planet's population was actually aware of.

Drema IV - A natural disaster the population was aware of is stopped. The Federation's existence and involvement remains a secret, but the population might wonder why this seismic instability stopped so suddenly without any real explanation.

Miramanee's planet - An attempt is made to stop a natural disaster the population is unaware of. The planet's population might have been exposed to minimal information regarding the Federation... but this was not the result of the Enterprise's rescue attempt, but the result of Kirk's stay and his subsequent rescue.

Veridian IV - Some asshole plans to blow up Veridians's sun. The Enterprise-D crew succeeds in stopping him. Veridian IV's population remains unaware of Soran's plans or the Enterprise's intervention. However, they could find remnants of the Enterprise-D's saucer section when they start with interplanetary space travel in five centuries or so (but until then the Federation could have removed the Enterprise from Veridian III's surface).

Of those, Veridian IV's rescue was actually the most justifiable one and the most perfectly done.

 

[BriGuy]

I don't get this idea that some people have that Kirk - and other Trek characters like Data and Trip - can't die or shouldn't die.

Props to the fact that Kirk died and, as far as canon is concerned, has stayed dead.

And rats to the death-doesn't-mean-anything trend that started with Spock.

I can say now looking back Spock should have stayed dead. And they should've gotten the Excelsior for a ship. Show some growth, change, real-life stuff, rather than stagnation.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I don't get this idea that some people have that Kirk - and other Trek characters like Data and Trip - can't die or shouldn't die.

Props to the fact that Kirk died and, as far as canon is concerned, has stayed dead.

And rats to the death-doesn't-mean-anything trend that started with Spock.

I can say now looking back Spock should have stayed dead. And they should've gotten the Excelsior for a ship. Show some growth, change, real-life stuff, rather than stagnation.

Good post..and I agree. Search For Spock guts the emotions of KHAN. Spock should have stayed dead, and they should have given more screen time to the others; Doohan/Takei or brought in someone new.

Rob

 

[BriGuy]

I don't get this idea that some people have that Kirk - and other Trek characters like Data and Trip - can't die or shouldn't die.

Props to the fact that Kirk died and, as far as canon is concerned, has stayed dead.

And rats to the death-doesn't-mean-anything trend that started with Spock.

I can say now looking back Spock should have stayed dead. And they should've gotten the Excelsior for a ship. Show some growth, change, real-life stuff, rather than stagnation.

Good post..and I agree. Search For Spock guts the emotions of KHAN. Spock should have stayed dead, and they should have given more screen time to the others; Doohan/Takei or brought in someone new.

Rob

One can only imagine the path Trek might have taken if it didn't seek the almighty reset button. In the end, that's all TSFS is, and TVH just builds off and continues that.

I think as we all look back now, many think the intent of TSFS was to bring Spock "back to life." At the start of the film, however, they're just wanting to bring Spock's dead body back to Vulcan, so his spirit or whatever can be released, or stored, or whatever, on Vulcan.

... here's a thought... what about TSFS goes as we know it, but at the end, Spock dies again... just as the Genesis planet aged rapidly and died, so does Spock... except this time, he is able to do so surrounded by his friends, who perhaps he is able to at last concede through his Vulcan ways are his friends... Spock saved them, and, even though he dies, says they saved him as well by bringing him home...

... heck, this movie could be called "The Voyage Home" instead, referring to Spock coming home to Vulcan.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I don't get this idea that some people have that Kirk - and other Trek characters like Data and Trip - can't die or shouldn't die.

Props to the fact that Kirk died and, as far as canon is concerned, has stayed dead.

And rats to the death-doesn't-mean-anything trend that started with Spock.

I can say now looking back Spock should have stayed dead. And they should've gotten the Excelsior for a ship. Show some growth, change, real-life stuff, rather than stagnation.

Good post..and I agree. Search For Spock guts the emotions of KHAN. Spock should have stayed dead, and they should have given more screen time to the others; Doohan/Takei or brought in someone new.

Rob

One can only imagine the path Trek might have taken if it didn't seek the almighty reset button. In the end, that's all TSFS is, and TVH just builds off and continues that.

I think as we all look back now, many think the intent of TSFS was to bring Spock "back to life." At the start of the film, however, they're just wanting to bring Spock's dead body back to Vulcan, so his spirit or whatever can be released, or stored, or whatever, on Vulcan.

... here's a thought... what about TSFS goes as we know it, but at the end, Spock dies again... just as the Genesis planet aged rapidly and died, so does Spock... except this time, he is able to do so surrounded by his friends, who perhaps he is able to at last concede through his Vulcan ways are his friends... Spock saved them, and, even though he dies, says they saved him as well by bringing him home...

... heck, this movie could be called "The Voyage Home" instead, referring to Spock coming home to Vulcan.

So much time has passed. We will never know what might have come if they had gone in another direction. But I think STAR TREK (TOS) with out Kirk/Spock isn't that good. Those two, no matter what TOS fans may think, KIRK SPOCK made that show, and are the best parts of those movies. Killing off SPock, in the first place, was probably wrong-headed to begin with.

Rob

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Kirk died?!

Thanks for the spoiler warning

 

[apenpaap]

Kirk died?!

Thanks for the spoiler warning

The movie is 15 years old. If we would have to post spoiler tags for everything in Trek, there would be more text in the spoilers then out of them on the BBS.

That said, I went into "What You Leave Behind..." knowing pretty much everything that was going to happen, so I know how much it sucks to be spoilered.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Generations was indeed the best TNG film however.

Pretty sad that this is true.

The Kirk nonsense should have been dropped. The story would have been far more effective if they focused on Picard's character more. It would have given some focus to the film. The beginning of Act three, with Picard waking up in the Nexus -- that should have been the focus. Instead they built a movie around a laundry list of "cool things" they wanted in the movie (Klingon sisters! Guinan! Kirk! The Enterprise B! A Holodeck scene! Data's emotion chip! Enterprise go boom! The two captains meet! The coolest evil villain since Khan and Skeletor!).

 

[Tuxedo Dragon]

Earth is a pre-warp civilization too, ATM. If some madman would decide to blow up the Sun, and there were two guys out there who could stop it, you would say "Nah, just let him blow up the Sun."?

I agree Generations is the best Trek film.

Except Picard and the Federation in general are quite willing to let cultures go extinct. The inhabbitants of Boraal II were going to be wiped out until Worf's brother broke the rules. Data also breaks the rules with his actions on Drema IV.

Good intentions get you nothing but planets contaminated by Nazism, Chicago mobsterism, dead eco-systems from anti-matter etc, etc.

Soran was a criminal but I don't see the point going after him since he was adamant about comitting suicide in the Nexus. The Duras sisters did have stolen Fed propertry(and a hostage) so maybe the plot could have been rewritten around that.

The Prime Directive prevents Starfleet from getting invovled in the affairs of pre warp civilizations. Including natural disasters.

However Soran was actively destorying an innocent planet. He had no right to do so. It doesn't matter if he was part of starfleet or not. He was violating the prime directive and and it was Picard's job to stop him. You can't just let a madman destory any planet that he wants. Soran's weapon posed a threat to the whole galaxy.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Earth is a pre-warp civilization too, ATM. If some madman would decide to blow up the Sun, and there were two guys out there who could stop it, you would say "Nah, just let him blow up the Sun."?

I agree Generations is the best Trek film.

Except Picard and the Federation in general are quite willing to let cultures go extinct. The inhabbitants of Boraal II were going to be wiped out until Worf's brother broke the rules. Data also breaks the rules with his actions on Drema IV.

Good intentions get you nothing but planets contaminated by Nazism, Chicago mobsterism, dead eco-systems from anti-matter etc, etc.

Soran was a criminal but I don't see the point going after him since he was adamant about comitting suicide in the Nexus. The Duras sisters did have stolen Fed propertry(and a hostage) so maybe the plot could have been rewritten around that.

The Prime Directive prevents Starfleet from getting invovled in the affairs of pre warp civilizations. Including natural disasters.

However Soran was actively destorying an innocent planet. He had no right to do so. It doesn't matter if he was part of starfleet or not. He was violating the prime directive and and it was Picard's job to stop him. You can't just let a madman destory any planet that he wants. Soran's weapon posed a threat to the whole galaxy.

The Prime Directive is a tool for the arrogant..the French must have come up with it..

Rob

 

[Tuxedo Dragon]

I don't get this idea that some people have that Kirk - and other Trek characters like Data and Trip - can't die or shouldn't die.

Props to the fact that Kirk died and, as far as canon is concerned, has stayed dead.

And rats to the death-doesn't-mean-anything trend that started with Spock.

I can say now looking back Spock should have stayed dead. And they should've gotten the Excelsior for a ship. Show some growth, change, real-life stuff, rather than stagnation.

Good post..and I agree. Search For Spock guts the emotions of KHAN. Spock should have stayed dead, and they should have given more screen time to the others; Doohan/Takei or brought in someone new.

Rob

The Star Trek movie franchise wouldn't have worked without Spock. There is no way they would have been able to leave him dead.

Bringing Spock backed worked because Kirk lost his son and the Enterprise. When you bring a character back from the dead their has to be some sacrifice to balence the scales in the narrative. Everything just can't go back to the status quo without some hardship.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Generations was indeed the best TNG film however.

Probably due to the fact that GEN, out of all the films, is the most like the series. In fact, my friend and I think it's a decent two-part episode. Not a great movie, but plays well on television.

GEN is also the only TNG film not to use TWOK as a model for its structure, villain, or character motivations. Well, not entirely come to think about it. The theme of age and time passing could be side to be somewhat similar to the one in TWOK. But very, very loosely.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I keep reading how they handled Kirk’s death wrong. How he should have died on the bridge of a ship, one last epic battle…BLAH BLAH BLAH…

Rob

.

On a bridge, under a bridge. Close enough for government work.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Generations was indeed the best TNG film however.

Probably due to the fact that GEN, out of all the films, is the most like the series. In fact, my friend and I think it's a decent two-part episode. Not a great movie, but plays well on television.

GEN is also the only TNG film not to use TWOK as a model for its structure, villain, or character motivations. Well, not entirely come to think about it. The theme of age and time passing could be side to be somewhat similar to the one in TWOK. But very, very loosely.

Good point...

Three years ago, my friend and I watched all STAR TREK movies that had been out at that time. We ended up ranking KHAN #1 and GENERATIONS #2. I hadn't seen Generations in some time, and when it was over, I remember being impressed with what the movie was trying to say.

In case you're all wondering? Nemesis did end up in last place, with Insurrection just above it, and THE FINAL FRONTIER above it.

After we watched Nemesis, I made a vow; I will never watch this movie again. There is nothing, outside of the Romulan ship, that I like about that movie. Sorry folk; the story is implausible, its laughable. The acting, even from the "LEAD" actor, seems to be phoned. The musical score is blah. The FX, those dreaded CGI effects, are cartoony. And, most of all? The movie just takes forever to get done. TMP, for all its problems, length included, is are more watchable than the mangled mess of Nemesis.

Made a good frisbee though!!!

Rob